🚨 Rivian Adopts Tesla NACS Standard! (Adapters in 2024, Standard Charging Port in 2025)

[brancky3]

Exactly. Rivian needs very good returns on their investments. The RAN network isn't one of them.

Government funding will definitely help this point and if the RAN network is a decent size they'd be much more capable of receiving additional funding / investment.

Sponsored

 

[azbill]

That is a pretty good point. It us unclear which companies have cooled ports which would help cool and adapter (but not sure they had the foresight or thought the expense was worth it).

Unclear if the Supercharger v3 (and/or v4) handles have cooling but we know the cables ARE and we *know* Tesla has a 2019 patent on the handles being cooled so they've thought about for several years. https://electrek.co/2019/09/30/tesla-patents-liquid-cooled-charging-connector/

CCS has both the charger cables and the DC pins cooled. The charger side pins are female and have coils around them. The car side has male pins, which have no room for cooling. The car side also has much larger wires to carry the current, since they do not have to move. CCS also specifies a minimum time to handle full rated power. They also have temperature sensors to reduce power automatically.

To date, I do not think Tesla has released exactly what the specifications are for their NACS standard. They need to specify:

Maximum voltage
Maximum current
Minimum required power envelope
Maximum temperature at the connector
Minimum time sustained at full power
Etc.

 

[Autolycus]

Yeah, I've seen that one. I meant one in Corolla so you charge up and air down to drive all the way up to False Cape State Park.

What is the electrical infrastructure like in Corolla? Is there enough capacity for a DCFC?

FWIW, the RAN in remote locations is going to be really challenging until Rivian is producing its own batteries or is recovering a good number of batteries off of used or totaled vehicles. Battery-supported DCFC is going to be the only viable option for a lot of places unless they just do much lower top charging speeds than they are doing at most locations.

 

[Yossarian]

When you're the Walmart of selling electricity, especially connected to a product you also sell, sure you'll make money. Rivian isn't close to that.

I don't think that the RAN was intended to generate a profit directly, and was envisaged more-or-less as loss-leader advertising the Rivian brand and hopefully generating increased vehicle sales. I couldn't agree more that there's no comparison between Tesla and Rivian with respect to charging networks, but I don't think that there is, or really ever was, any intention by Rivian to move into the charging space for revenue generation purposes.

 

[Luckycharms783]

Yeah, I've seen that one. I meant one in Corolla so you charge up and air down to drive all the way up to False Cape State Park.

We stay in Corolla every other year so I know exactly where you're referring to.

Stations like that are not just going to be cost ineffective. They're going to be HUGE loss leaders because of demand charges.

Do a google search for "electricity demand charges". Basically, commercial customers are charged a cost for the highest demand they use in a month, even if it's only 1 time.

These charges can be a third to a half of the bill. So a station in a location like the one your suggesting, that only see's a lot of activity for 3 months of the year, would be hit with HUGE demand charges (relative to the actual kWh used). Effectively operating in the black for it's entire existence.

I have a feeling this is why you haven't seen RAN's installed in a lot of the way places yet.

They'd all be losers. And an early startup like Rivian needs cast flow winners as they grow.

 

[docwhiz]

We stay in Corolla every other year so I know exactly where you're referring to.

Stations like that are not just going to be cost ineffective. They're going to be HUGE loss leaders because of demand charges.

Do a google search for "electricity demand charges". Basically, commercial customers are charged a cost for the highest demand they use in a month, even if it's only 1 time.

These charges can be a third to a half of the bill. So a station in a location like the one your suggesting, that only see's a lot of activity for 3 months of the year, would be hit with HUGE demand charges (relative to the actual kWh used). Effectively operating in the black for it's entire existence.

I have a feeling this is why you haven't seen RAN's installed in a lot of the way places yet.

They'd all be losers. And an early startup like Rivian needs cast flow winners as they grow.

Batteries.

 

[Goose]

What is the electrical infrastructure like in Corolla? Is there enough capacity for a DCFC?

FWIW, the RAN in remote locations is going to be really challenging until Rivian is producing its own batteries or is recovering a good number of batteries off of used or totaled vehicles. Battery-supported DCFC is going to be the only viable option for a lot of places unless they just do much lower top charging speeds than they are doing at most locations.

Energy infrastructure is not the best in the area, but that's not for me to figure out, it's for Rivian who marketed the Rivian ADVENTURE Network as a charger in remote locations, not at REI's.

We stay in Corolla every other year so I know exactly where you're referring to.

Stations like that are not just going to be cost ineffective. They're going to be HUGE loss leaders because of demand charges.

Do a google search for "electricity demand charges". Basically, commercial customers are charged a cost for the highest demand they use in a month, even if it's only 1 time.

These charges can be a third to a half of the bill. So a station in a location like the one your suggesting, that only see's a lot of activity for 3 months of the year, would be hit with HUGE demand charges (relative to the actual kWh used). Effectively operating in the black for it's entire existence.

I have a feeling this is why you haven't seen RAN's installed in a lot of the way places yet.

They'd all be losers. And an early startup like Rivian needs cast flow winners as they grow.

I completely understand what you're saying, but that is the whole point of the RAN. This deal with Tesla means no additional RAN chargers should be put in an urban environment. if the energy cost is high, well that's what it takes to play ball if you want to take an EV off roading. It's not like gas isn't marked up when you get to these places as well.

Just a few days ago I forgot to fuel up my boat while I had it pulled out of the water. I was planning to take an old college roommate fishing down the Cape Fear river for some redfish. I knew I needed about 5 more gallons (had 15 in the tank) to be comfortable for a day long trip, especially if I wanted to put the hammer down and get to spots quickly. I decided to idle over to local Marina and just eat the mark-up, the gas as the Marina was $6 per gallon versus the $3.15 on land.

 

[strdg]

Should be the V3 stations. Any station listed at 250kw. This is really close to the 12,000 number.

That makes sense, and is also what I was fearing. There's a 150kw in the exact location I need on a not-well-traveled route that I was hoping to use. Hopefully it gets upgraded soon!

 

[cdub]

Very unlikely. SC cables are super expensive.

I read somewhere that they're cheap compared to other charging systems.

Then you get horror stories about half of the chargers are dead, the navigation takes them to wrong spots, payment doesn't work etc etc. So people like me start to advocate to my friends and family to not buy a non Tesla EV, unless you enjoy charger scavenger hunts.

After owning a leaf for 12 years I've only recommended Tesla for this reason. Rivian is the first company to offer something amazing despite having ccs. Now that they can use NACS I can recommend non Tesla cars.

And RAN will be using NACS format?

Yes

 

[MP3Mike]

To date, I do not think Tesla has released exactly what the specifications are for their NACS standard. They need to specify:

Maximum voltage
Maximum current
Minimum required power envelope
Maximum temperature at the connector
Minimum time sustained at full power
Etc.

Maybe you should review the documents that they have provided: https://www.tesla.com/support/charging-product-guides#NACS-resources

 

[MP3Mike]

It seems we missed some details from the Reuters article yesterday: https://www.reuters.com/business/au...an-adopt-teslas-charging-standard-2023-06-20/

Scaringe said Rivian's network will also adopt Tesla's standard plugs, opening up a significant revenue stream from Tesla owners using Rivian chargers. "The network will actually become cash flow positive fairly quickly," he said.

It seems that he thinks opening the RAN to Tesla owners will get them to cash flow positive quickly. I find that hard to believe, but I guess I don't know how much they are going to charge. Maybe they are going to require a monthly subscription?

 

[Luckycharms783]

I completely understand what you're saying, but that is the whole point of the RAN. This deal with Tesla means no additional RAN chargers should be put in an urban environment. if the energy cost is high, well that's what it takes to play ball if you want to take an EV off roading. It's not like gas isn't marked up when you get to these places as well.

I absolutely agree. I don't understand why they can't just raise their prices to whatever it costs to make stations in these places profitable.

Places like Corolla, NC or Moab, UT, where there's no other charging options, should just charge whatever it takes to at least break even. Even if it makes it more expensive than gas. Then lower their prices over time as there becomes more competition.

It seems as if charge point operators have this metal barrier that EV charging can't cost more than gas, no matter what.

It's not like anyone bats an eye at the gas prices in Death Valley.

 

[TexasBob]

That makes sense, and is also what I was fearing. There's a 150kw in the exact location I need on a not-well-traveled route that I was hoping to use. Hopefully it gets upgraded soon!

Same. Unfortunately those out-of-the-way locations tend to be the low-use locations that are not upgraded quickly. Tesla needs to start charging by location (just like gasoline stations do). There is a reason that out of the way gasoline stations charge an extra few cents. It is the way to cover the higher costs and lower utilization.

 

[MP3Mike]

Places like Corolla, NC or Moab, UT, where there's no other charging options, should just charge whatever it takes to at least break even. Even if it makes it more expensive than gas. Then lower their prices over time as there becomes more competition.

It depends on usage. Taken to the extreme, let's say there is only a single charge in a month, peaking at ~220kW for a total of 80kWh. That could cost them ~$6,600 for the demand charges and ~$4 for the energy charges. Obviously, they can't charge a single person $6,604 for a charge. (Demand charges vary by region/utility but are often between $20 and $50 per kW, I figured at $30/kW.)

Say you wanted to get it down to $1/kWh you would need to get ~85 charges per month, or three per day. But if you have two of those charges overlap, your demand charges double to $13,200, so then you need ~6 sessions per day to keep it at $1/kWh. But that increases the chances of having three simultaneous charging sessions, increasing demand charges to $18,000. (Assuming a maximum station capacity of 600kW.) So, you would need ~8 charging sessions per day.

Do you think there is enough demand for at those sites to get ~250 charging sessions per month? Even when charging $1/kWh?

Edit: I found one rate structure for a random place in Utah:

So, demand charges are only about $20/kW. (Facility + Power). So maybe it would work at ~175 charging session per month.

Tesla needs to start charging by location (just like gasoline stations do).

Tesla does vary their rates per station, and even time of use. (Electrify America on the other hand charges a single rate country wide.)

 

[Zorg]

In CA, cost per KWh for DCFC is 13c to 20c and demand charges run in the $1000s per month. So with a high utilization rate, it should be possible to make some money when selling the KWh at 40 to 50c

Sponsored