CyberTruck is more than Stainless Steel...Tesla excels at Engineering in so many ways.

[Zoidz]

Sure. What could go wrong?

Haha! None of these systems scare me. If there is a serious problem, it will be recalled and fixed on the manufacturer's dime. Those that are afraid of Tesla's or BMW's system can make noises at the NTSB.

Be sure to let me know if they take a non-expert on automotive steering systems more seriously than all the data and engineers they have showing it is safe.

You are really out on a limb here barking up the safety tree. But I get it, anything to throw shade on Tesla and Elon Musk. Yes, I get it.

Having worked with safety related software and hardware (safety PLCs, etc) in process control systems for 30 years, I am certain I know more about it than you. I’ve seen the emergency patches issued for software problems that allowed redundant hardware to still fail. This from Allen Bradley, who has vastly more experience in safety related software than Tesla. I have overall trust in this tech from Allen Bradley. I have trust if/when GM, Ford, etc. implement it. But I question it coming from Tesla, a relatively immature company in this arena and a company with a history of software failures that have caused serious accidentss and deaths.

I get it, it’s hard for you to comprehend through Elon goggles. The Elon reality distortion field is strong within you.

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[Diddy123]

To be clear, the Cybertruck was never billed by Elon or anyone else at Tesla as having bullet proof glass. That is something the media made up.

Elon told us that you could literally throw a kitchen sink or wrenches at it and it wouldn’t break. Are you saying that the production windows will meet those claims?

Also, Sandy Munro drove the Cyberbeast for a day and said the visibility to the outside is phenomenal, the best out there (except for a motorcycle or a convertible). I have no idea how accurate his observation is, but I have to think there is some basis for it, his wife drives a Rivian and Sandy is very familiar with it.

You can’t see out the rear window. I’m not sure this requires discussion. I’m not looking down towards the floor every time I want to see what’s behind me

The promised range for the mass-market version, the dual motor, is 340 miles, 40 miles further than Tesla promised in 2019.

2 of the 3 models are waaay under the range that was promised. So I guess getting 33% of the way to your promise is good enough?

It's hard for me to understand how other EV enthusiasts can have so much hate for other EV's. The more the merrier!

No hate, competition is good. But I’m genuinely amazed that people absorb revisionist history like they do. I’ll again post all of Elon’s lies for posterity.

• Kitchen sink proof windows
• its a boat
• it’ll go 500 miles
• towing capacity
• 6’5” bed
• extra wide bed
• solar roof panels (not said at the reveal, but claimed later)
• total payload
• bed-side storage
• no spare tire storage
• PRICE

But it is indeed faster than the slowest 911 produced, so there’s that.

Jokes aside, Rivian didn’t deliver on a lot of things that were originally promised either, and I was and always have been vocal about that. RJ ended up doing the right thing about the price, at least. It’s unlikely Elon does the same, but time will tell.

 

[KootenayEV]

It does because the higher the voltage the less resistance so the heat is less, and specific to this system is the 4680 cells which have less resistance than their previous cells

The first part of your statement would only apply to the wire coming into/leaving the battery pack, and even then only if they under-sized the wire in a 400v system vs 800v. Again, at the cell level, the voltage is the SAME. This is inherent in the chemistry of the batteries, and cell format doesn't change this. They just change the configuration of the packs as to how many are in series (adding voltage) vs how many are in parallel (adding amp-hours).

The second part of your statement is true (due to the tab-less design), and would result in less heat needing to be removed from the battery cell, but I have seen some debate online as to whether the resulting heat from the larger can is as easy to transfer out of the pack as it is for existing 2170 cells - particularly in relation to heat transfer direction (ie longitudinally to the ends of the cell, or laterally through the diameter of the cell).

The early indication from the Model Y 4680 didn't look good, as the fast charging curve for that car sucked compared to 2170 packs. Looks like they improved that for the Cybertruck pack - but we only have one anecdotal data point so far that I've seen.

The R1 pack has cooling plates on the ends of the cell (watch for about 30s each from about 5:45 and 14:50 on this teardown video), unlike the Model 3/Y 2170 packs with the interwoven ribbon. Personally I think that is the downfall of the thermal transfer system in the Rivian and explains the fast-charging difference between them (when you compare C-rate). Guessing here, but I suspect Rivian went this way as an easier method to manufacture, but unfortunately it has lower thermal performance. This video has a good explanation of ribbon vs plate cooling for cylindrical cells (note: of the same size!), and also goes on later to discuss the tab-less cell (I'm not ready to make the leap that cooling a 4680 will work exactly the same as a 2170 format like he did though - we will see!)

If the R1 had a better cooling system, it should be able to maintain max charge rate of 220 kW for much longer - likely up to around 60% or so based on my experience with my Model 3 (comparing C-rate; ie 220kW is about ~1.7C; which equates to ~125kW on my 3, and I see that speed to ~60% SOC). That would be just under 18 mins from 10-60% SOC. Would shave a solid 10 mins from 10-80% charge.

Where this gets interesting is where the limiting factor is for the R1 400v battery system: if we removed the existing thermal imitation of the R1, would it then be the wires from the DCFC inlet to the pack? We should be able to get to 250kW given Tesla manages this fine for the 3/Y.

After that, it seems likely that the limitation is related to running higher amperage through charging cables and/or handles (I come to this conclusion because they could run thicker cables in the car; the user isn't impacted by this [though cost would be], whereas charging cables are already unwieldy when too long or not liquid-cooled). Hence 800+ volt systems.

If the Rivian had an 800v pack, and the thermal limitations were minimized, with the existing cells, I suspect we could at least get a charging curve like the 3/Y 2170 packs; ie. we'd have a peak power >350kW (when comparing C-rate), and similar charging times.

(Yes I do wish Rivian had used 800v architecture, but at the end of the day, I'm ok with charging for a bit longer if it means I was able to get rid of my gas pick-up sooner.)

 

[DuoRivians]

The first part of your statement would only apply to the wire coming into/leaving the battery pack, and even then only if they under-sized the wire in a 400v system vs 800v. Again, at the cell level, the voltage is the SAME. This is inherent in the chemistry of the batteries, and cell format doesn't change this. They just change the configuration of the packs as to how many are in series (adding voltage) vs how many are in parallel (adding amp-hours).

The second part of your statement is true (due to the tab-less design), and would result in less heat needing to be removed from the battery cell, but I have seen some debate online as to whether the resulting heat from the larger can is as easy to transfer out of the pack as it is for existing 2170 cells - particularly in relation to heat transfer direction (ie longitudinally to the ends of the cell, or laterally through the diameter of the cell).

The early indication from the Model Y 4680 didn't look good, as the fast charging curve for that car sucked compared to 2170 packs. Looks like they improved that for the Cybertruck pack - but we only have one anecdotal data point so far that I've seen.

The R1 pack has cooling plates on the ends of the cell (watch for about 30s each from about 5:45 and 14:50 on this teardown video), unlike the Model 3/Y 2170 packs with the interwoven ribbon. Personally I think that is the downfall of the thermal transfer system in the Rivian and explains the fast-charging difference between them (when you compare C-rate). Guessing here, but I suspect Rivian went this way as an easier method to manufacture, but unfortunately it has lower thermal performance. This video has a good explanation of ribbon vs plate cooling for cylindrical cells (note: of the same size!), and also goes on later to discuss the tab-less cell (I'm not ready to make the leap that cooling a 4680 will work exactly the same as a 2170 format like he did though - we will see!)

If the R1 had a better cooling system, it should be able to maintain max charge rate of 220 kW for much longer - likely up to around 60% or so based on my experience with my Model 3 (comparing C-rate; ie 220kW is about ~1.7C; which equates to ~125kW on my 3, and I see that speed to ~60% SOC). That would be just under 18 mins from 10-60% SOC. Would shave a solid 10 mins from 10-80% charge.

Where this gets interesting is where the limiting factor is for the R1 400v battery system: if we removed the existing thermal imitation of the R1, would it then be the wires from the DCFC inlet to the pack? We should be able to get to 250kW given Tesla manages this fine for the 3/Y.

After that, it seems likely that the limitation is related to running higher amperage through charging cables and/or handles (I come to this conclusion because they could run thicker cables in the car; the user isn't impacted by this [though cost would be], whereas charging cables are already unwieldy when too long or not liquid-cooled). Hence 800+ volt systems.

If the Rivian had an 800v pack, and the thermal limitations were minimized, with the existing cells, I suspect we could at least get a charging curve like the 3/Y 2170 packs; ie. we'd have a peak power >350kW (when comparing C-rate), and similar charging times.

(Yes I do wish Rivian had used 800v architecture, but at the end of the day, I'm ok with charging for a bit longer if it means I was able to get rid of my gas pick-up sooner.)

New battery pack design coming in 2024. Perhaps Rivian will improve the thermals, charging curve with that one. Doubt it’ll have 800v though

 

[usofrob]

New battery pack design coming in 2024. Perhaps Rivian will improve the thermals, charging curve with that one. Doubt it’ll have 800v though

Where did they announce that there is a new battery pack design coming?

 

[DuoRivians]

Where did they announce that there is a new battery pack design coming?

https://www.rivianforums.com/forum/...in-2024-not-referring-to-standard-pack.21814/

 

[Tall_Rider]

So, maybe the best video yet on the New Cybertruck. I was surprised how much faster it was in a drag race off the line than my R1T...it just goes. I do think most people either love or hate the exterior, but under that tough exterior is some of the best engineering. Tesla has some of the best engineers who are unrestrained, unlike legacy OEMs with their bureaucracy and siloed departments. Tesla has finally moved to 48 v architecture, something they have wanted to do for some time, steer by wire, 4 wheel steering, major casting, ie Giga Cast, and the list goes on to produce an overall amazing machine. Just like my Rivian, I waited 4 years to get one, I've had my reservation for a Cybertruck for 4 years now. Time will tell, but Cybertruck may be our next EV.

Cammisa put out a shameless promotional piece essentially commissioned by Tesla and you ate it up. My god you must be gullible.

 

[R1Tmcg]

Has anyone discussed how the CT headlights will fair in the snow with them being in that small channel at the front of the truck? If the Rivian lights build up snow and can get covered, I can only imagine this channel with the narrow headlights will get gummed up with snow and mud as well.

 

[GHuff]

While I can appreciate some of the advancements in engineering, there’s just so many LOL pieces of the vehicle I can’t look past. It’s like their engineers just quit about halfway through development.

• Tiny frunk
• Hilarious spare tire storage
• Windows that went from bullet proof to “rock resistant”
• it’s not a boat
• horrible lines of sight, especially out the back
• Material that will be impossible to keep looking nice
• To get even 80% of the promised range, you have to sacrifice 1/3 of your truck bed (and can’t have a spare tire)

And just the straight up lying by the company you’re supporting With your purchase. I mean, like half the shit that was promised was vapor and now it costs 40% more than you were told.

I'll start by stating that the Cybertruck is hideous and I love my R1T. But this is list is not a genuine criticism at all. It is just as easy to create a similar list of Rivian's overpromises / failures / compromises. For instance:
- Tank Turn
- Removeable Roof
- Electrochromatic Glass Roof
- Camp Kitchen
-Tonneau Cover
- Rivian Membership
- RAN Charging Network
- Proximity locking that works
- Utter chaos that is Rivian Service Centers
- Flimsy aluminum body panels
- Paper thin windshield glass
- Entertainment options on screens
- fender benders that cost $40k to repair

Hate the cybertruck all you want, but at least be fair. There is some great engineering in it.

 

[Diddy123]

I'll start by stating that the Cybertruck is hideous and I love my R1T. But this is list is not a genuine criticism at all. It is just as easy to create a similar list of Rivian's overpromises / failures / compromises. For instance:

Hate the cybertruck all you want, but at least be fair. There is some great engineering in it.

Hmm, let’s see here. I started my post with

While I can appreciate some of the advancements in engineering

And I literally put the below in my very next post in this thread. Just because other manufacturers have done the same doesn’t mean it’s not a “genuine criticism“.

Jokes aside, Rivian didn’t deliver on a lot of things that were originally promised either, and I was and always have been vocal about that. RJ ended up doing the right thing about the price, at least. It’s unlikely Elon does the same, but time will tell.

How again am I not being fair?

 

[AllInev]

So, maybe the best video yet on the New Cybertruck. I was surprised how much faster it was in a drag race off the line than my R1T...it just goes. I do think most people either love or hate the exterior, but under that tough exterior is some of the best engineering. Tesla has some of the best engineers who are unrestrained, unlike legacy OEMs with their bureaucracy and siloed departments. Tesla has finally moved to 48 v architecture, something they have wanted to do for some time, steer by wire, 4 wheel steering, major casting, ie Giga Cast, and the list goes on to produce an overall amazing machine. Just like my Rivian, I waited 4 years to get one, I've had my reservation for a Cybertruck for 4 years now. Time will tell, but Cybertruck may be our next EV.

Great engineering, but styled for tech bros and wealthy gaming nerds. Disappointing.

 

[HarrySiii]

Rear steering:
GM, Mercedes, Porsche, Honda, BMW. Too many to list. The 1987 Honda Prelude had rear steering. My current Mercedes has 11 degrees of rear steering.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Vehicles_with_four-wheel_steering


48V Systems:
Too many to list. Basically any vehicle with a mild hybrid system uses 48V architecture.

Steer by wire:
This is the only one that is relatively new. Toyota and Lexus use it in their EVs. Infinite (Nissan) has had steer by wire for almost 10 years. Many other OEM have announced steer by wire on products being released in the next 12-18 months.

I was going to say the same thing. Infiniti has had steer-by-wire for a long time now (yes, 10 years actually). I believe that model year may have had the option of a connected steering column, so Cybertruck could actually be the first without a traditional steering column there. https://www.drive.com.au/news/infiniti-q50-world-first-steer-by-wire-technology-detailed/

 

[mkg3]

@Administrator,

Since you guys also run the CT forum, you should have a face off between the most advocate Rivian members vs the most advocate CT members in a “auto battle forum”

I can’t believe this thread is still going on the way it is. I like the fact that there are more options today than last week - its a good thing!

 

[Zoidz]

Great engineering, but styled for tech bros and wealthy gaming nerds. Disappointing.

Some great engineering - yes. Is it an engineering marvel like some claimed in this thread? No.

 

[NineElectrics]

I guarantee you that whatever “great” engineering is in here (which is debatable), it will be manufactured terribly and take years for quality to stabilize.

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