Damn good software architecture as moat

[AlcesBull]

Okay I have a new hot take:

I'm fine not having CarPlay, but I want AirPlay available when parked/charging so I can cast the videos I'm watching on my phone to that big dash screen, baby!

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[Rividiculous]

Some questions: Can Rivian add Apple Music streaming (preferably lossless quality) without adopting CarPlay? Is that what Tesla provides? Is it hard? Do they have to surrender to Apple (or pay Apple)?

I stream at home using Apple Music and it would be nice to be able to do so in my future R1S. I’m not an audiophile but want the best sound I can get (even though I am probably kidding myself as to what my ears can really detect). Still, I’d rather not have to pay Spotify for a monthly subscription.

I like Apple but I agree that it’s better for Rivian to control the in car software.

Thank you in advance to anyone who can explain.

 

[Magicbus]

Apple Music with 900+ of my favorite tunes on my phone works great in my R1T over Bluetooth. As soon as I get in the car it picks up where it left off.

Regarding the software architecture, another 40 year software developer here and I am really impressed with Rivian’s work. Hard to compare the frequent Rivian updates to the barely once a year, manually downloaded, transferred to a USB stick and manually installed updates I get from Ford for my Bronco Sport.

 

[lefkonj]

I have learned to live without it but when I spend time in my I4 I grow to appreciate CarPlay even more and more.

I think the money argument is backwards. If Rivian implemented CarPlay they wouldn't have to make Spotify/Sirius/Amazon/etc work on the Rivian. CarPlay would handle all of that. They could focus on the vehicle it self, the suspension battery engines Drive+ and all the things that make Rivian great.

 

[racekarl]

Some questions: Can Rivian add Apple Music streaming (preferably lossless quality) without adopting CarPlay? Is that what Tesla provides? Is it hard? Do they have to surrender to Apple (or pay Apple)?

Yes it can be done - both Tesla and Porsche have "native" Apple Music integration (though Porsche does also have CarPlay).

As to whether it's hard, well, that's in the eye of the beholder I suppose. There is an available and documented API for it, so the part about getting the music from Apple should be pretty straightforward. There would be a bunch of gruntwork development to do like authentication, authorization, etc. The UI could be partially shared with other media apps like Spotify, but there are probably enough differences to mean at least some new code to write there.

I don't know how much or what sort of data they have to share with Apple. It does not seem like there is a direct cost, in fact the opposite may be true: Apple offers an affiliate program so it could potentially be (very minor) source of revenue, but who knows if that pays enough to cover the cost of developing the integration. (The above relates to the iOS and web APIs, it could be that Apple separately negotiated agreements with Tesla and Porsche)

 

[NY_Rob]

Rivian has done some great sw stuff, but they are waaaaaay behind on some of the really simple stuff that other non-software driven vehicles have had for years now:

1) No native speech to text conversion and no native text to speech conversion
2) No way to plug in a simple USB drive with music
3) No native voice command system
4) No simple way to enable "maximum energy conservation mode" basically shutting everything down/killing vampire drain for storage purposes

 

[Jiji]

My guess is that a Rivian intern could implement CarPlay, and probably has as an internal technology demonstrator.

So far I haven’t seen any mention of CarPlay extending the useful life of the hardware. I’ll hazard a guess that the UI hardware design is from 2019-ish so may be close to five years old and will never be updated. It can only get slower relative to phone tech, CarPlay/AA offer a chance at hardware updates like ML/AI that the Rivian will never have.

The coming layoffs and cost cuts won’t push out new features any faster and will likely slow them down. Adding CarPlay/AA adds a must-have feature for many and is invisible to those that don’t use it.

Go back to the IPO roadshow and remember what Rivian was promising then and can’t deliver on today, the promised RAN network comes to mind. Sometimes you need to re-evaluate and when resources are scarce leveraging others tech could be a smart move going forward.

 

[Fred6v]

Software content in vehicles will continue to increase and become even more of a differentiator. I'm old enough to remember that IBM gave up ownership of the software stack in their first PC to tiny Microsoft since they thought the margins were in hardware. We know how that turned out. Farley at Ford saw this strategically and why he dropped the partnership with Rivian. Time will tell but keeping Apple and Google away may allow R to control it's destiny and preserve its capitalization!

 

[NineElectrics]

Much Rivian's software is based on Linux, Android and Unreal Engine, the code of which they do not own. They do have a liberal license to use it, however. But other platforms offer licenses that give licensees similar freedom. Those platforms, from Apple and Google, receive billions of dollars in investment that Rivian will never match.

I don't consider Rivian architecture all that impressive given the woeful state of nav. and their failed update SNAFU. Ultimately, it doesn't result in any benefit to me over competitors offerings, so it doesn't have any incremental value. Well, beyond spying on users. That brings some value to Rivian. That pisses me off. I'd rather pay for the product than be the product.

 

[Cypress]

Apple Music with 900+ of my favorite tunes on my phone works great in my R1T over Bluetooth. As soon as I get in the car it picks up where it left off.

Regarding the software architecture, another 40 year software developer here and I am really impressed with Rivian’s work. Hard to compare the frequent Rivian updates to the barely once a year, manually downloaded, transferred to a USB stick and manually installed updates I get from Ford for my Bronco Sport.

I have a Tesla model 3, where they added Apple Music, and the difference in sound between running from my iPhone via Bluetooth and running from the integrated Apple Music is night and day.

The Apple Music app supports Spatial Audio and Tesla‘s immersive audio. You just don’t get that over Bluetooth

its similar in our car with CarPlay. The sound is just so much better than bBluetooth

 

[Cypress]

After long career in the software biz I gotta believe a significant value add and possible barrier for other competitors is Rivian's software architecture. It ain't perfect but its still pretty awesome. Despite the whining about no carplay it's pretty sophisticated. The OTA strategy is great and I enjoy getting monthly improvements. What the carplay crowd doesn't understand it that Rivian owns it! Every line of code. Anybody whose done business with Apple knows they extract every dollar from licensees. By not having Apple or Google/Android bits under the hood they control their destiny software-wise. But curious to have Ford or GM truck buyers or even Polestar buyers weigh in on this point. I exclude Tesla CT since don't believe it's a viable competitor but it's not the main point.

sort of missing the point of CarPlay from the use perspective, I think.

 

[Cypress]

I don't understand the almost obsessive complaints about Rivian and CarPlay (and Android Auto to a lesser extent). Maybe it is because I am an Android user who mainly uses Spotify. We have Android Auto in my wife's Ioniq 6. The Rivian interface is so superior and intuitive it isn't even close. I have also seen CarPlay in action - it seems very meh to me.

All this kvetching bc people want access to the music they bought on iTunes?

It provides a convenient and comfortable common interface between different vehicles and such a tight integration to the digital handset you carry in your pocket eveday. It’s so seemless. No new accounts to create, and your phone gets upgraded hardware and more capable every couple years.

 

[Cypress]

I was happy to use Android Auto in my 2018 and 2019 GM EVs because what was available in the 2019 built-in was clunky and slow (and non-existent in the 2018). For the Hummer EV, AA wasn't really well integrated and you were better off using the built-in software, if only because the integration with the physical hardware was better. Battery/range estimation mostly, but also because you have to use them for the automatic battery conditioning to work. I tried using AA at first and quickly just went back to using the built-in google maps.

Polestar doesn't offer AA yet on the 2 but they did eventually put Carplay in. I've used it once just to test it out, and realized I'm really not a fan of carplay on such a big screen, it's just not tuned well for it.

The argument really just boils down to "my particular navigation or audio streaming app isn't supported or doesn't work as well". Some people also complain about poor integration for text messaging but that's also something I'm not interested in doing while driving. People want it because they are familiar with the systems, but it's not like it takes more than a few days, weeks at most, of driving to get used to a completely new infotainment system. They are too used to older vehicles like the ones I had my initial experience with AA on.

if it’s a car you drive all the time, yes, you get used to the interface, but my partner really resists driving my Tesla, because the interface is jarring compared to their vehicle that has CarPlay, and she like that it has the same apps as on their phone.

my partner often returns from driving my car angry and frustrated due to the infotainment UI.

 

[Riv_Ian]

Alternative perspective: less likely to have to fight your partner for your vehicle .

 

[HaveBlue]

I'm fine with the maps situation. There's a lot of me that doesn't really want to give Apple or Google more data about me. Mapbox or OpenStreet whatever is one less I suppose and if it works offline then all the better for places where signal is non existent. Maybe I'd rather have onX. I also don't mess with my phone enough to have my curated music every time I get in the car but I get how people will want that especially if it is ad free. If they implement MAP (message access protocol) for messages I suppose that would be cool but I don't message while driving if I can avoid it. Let them call if it's important while I'm driving.

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