Driver+

[Ron S]

Seems to be that Tesla's competition all use LIDAR which will offer incremental/additional data compared to the Tesla system of cameras and sensors. It may be unfair, but even with millions of miles of data, the Tesla system does not appear to be absolutely failsafe.

In my now sold Ram 2500, I had trouble seeing other cars in my blind spot off the rear quarters. I felt fortunate to speak to RJ at the Mill Valley event, and I brought up the blind spot issue; plus, I noted that I thought the Tesla driver warning system, in the dash console, was not as good as the Audi driver warning system with lights in the mirrors. The Audi system more effectively draws your attention to the location of a vehicle in your blind spot.

RJ indicated that Rivian has an innovative approach to warn the driver when someone is in your blindspot. As a result of that conversation, I am expecting a pretty sophisticated system out of the gate, with improvements to follow on. It was remarkably refreshing to meet a company CEO who seemed to take such a passionate interest in producing a great vehicle, and paid such close attention to the functional details!

My belief is that RJ intends to exceed expectations on all levels for our vehicles to come.

Hoping for a June delivery!

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[Whmorken]

Agreed


Agreed, that a MY (CUV) and R1S (SUV) are different, however the utility which attracts me to the EV market is Autonomous driving whether it be Tesla's AP/FSD, or Rivian's Driver+.

I'm also 50% blind in one eye (early age glaucoma), so this feature set will be highly valuable to me in the next 10-20 years, especially night driving.

My concern is, whether Tesla has SUCH a head start on autonomous driving that other EV players in the market will never catch up (or always be #2). I liken this to the cloud wars (AWS, Azure, GCP), or Apple's start on the App Store market.

Yes, there is good detail on the site but does not speak to me about the underlying tech. Will Rivian be taking a similar approach as Tesla? (ML Self Learning Models, Computer Vision, etc.) or something else? Interested in hearing if anyone's read/heard anything about this?

For those of us growing into old age the computer assisted driving is a God send, for safety and pleasure. My eyes need cataract surgery in a year though I am 20/20 with glasses, so In a small way I can identify with you. We need autonomous assistance! I hope Tesla continues to lead by its example, spurring Rivian to compete. Amazon will press them too.

 

[Gshenderson]

When I bought my Tesla in 2015, they’d started including Autopilot hardware, but had not yet “gone live” with the software. I’m a pretty active driver, so I debated whether to pay $2500 for something that wasn’t proven and I didn’t know whether I’d really use or not.

But I ended up opting for it, and it was the best decision ever! I’ve done numerous trips where I drive 500-1000 miles in a day, and Autopilot makes that so much more relaxing and enjoyable. Not having to feel like you need to be looking straight ahead all the time allows you to enjoy the scenery this great country has to offer, and greatly reduces driving stress and fatigue. It’s also helpful in stop-and-go traffic since you can check emails without having the guy behind you laying on the horn when you don’t start moving immediately.

As far as full autonomous goes, I’m lukewarm on that. I feel like what I have with current Tesla Autopilot is the right amount of automation for me. I don’t need to program in “go from point A to point B and I’m going to sleep”. I actually enjoy the journey and want some level of control over it.

As a rant, I just wish Tesla would back out the “3 strikes and you’re out” “feature” they added to Autopilot whereby if the Autopilot beeps at you more than 3 times to put your hands on the wheel, then it disables it until you stop, put the car in park and open a door. Simply having a warning message pop up on the instrument cluster is not sufficient warning. If you’re doing your job as a driver, you should have your attention on the road and your surroundings, not the instrument cluster. The original Autopilot would give you an audible and visual indication to put your hands on the wheel, and didn’t have a “3 strikes and you’re out” if you took too long. It would simply disengage it and then you could reset it without having to stop. I sure hope Rivian doesn’t implement the warning the way Tesla has.

One additional point, I really like how Tesla has a setting for how close to follow the car in front of you. I typically have it set at “1” - follow the closest. I’d previously had an Audi Q7 with adaptive cruise control that I seldom used because it would put too much distance between me and the car in front of me, causing other cars to merge in front of me. It was super annoying. Tesla on setting “1” is a safe but close distance that prevents that (most of time - you’ll alway have “that guy” who will merge regardless of whether there’s room or not!).

 

[thrill]

... As a rant, I just wish Tesla would back out the “3 strikes and you’re out” “feature” they added to Autopilot whereby if the Autopilot beeps at you more than 3 times to put your hands on the wheel, then it disables it until you stop, put the car in park and open a door. Simply having a warning message pop up on the instrument cluster is not sufficient warning. If you’re doing your job as a driver, you should have your attention on the road and your surroundings, not the instrument cluster. The original Autopilot would give you an audible and visual indication to put your hands on the wheel, and didn’t have a “3 strikes and you’re out” if you took too long. It would simply disengage it and then you could reset it without having to stop. I sure hope Rivian doesn’t implement the warning the way Tesla has.

The Rivians will have active driver monitoring via cameras: Time to Build by Rivian - Rivian Stories

 

[Whmorken]

When I bought my Tesla in 2015, they’d started including Autopilot hardware, but had not yet “gone live” with the software. I’m a pretty active driver, so I debated whether to pay $2500 for something that wasn’t proven and I didn’t know whether I’d really use or not.

But I ended up opting for it, and it was the best decision ever! I’ve done numerous trips where I drive 500-1000 miles in a day, and Autopilot makes that so much more relaxing and enjoyable. Not having to feel like you need to be looking straight ahead all the time allows you to enjoy the scenery this great country has to offer, and greatly reduces driving stress and fatigue. It’s also helpful in stop-and-go traffic since you can check emails without having the guy behind you laying on the horn when you don’t start moving immediately.

As far as full autonomous goes, I’m lukewarm on that. I feel like what I have with current Tesla Autopilot is the right amount of automation for me. I don’t need to program in “go from point A to point B and I’m going to sleep”. I actually enjoy the journey and want some level of control over it.

As a rant, I just wish Tesla would back out the “3 strikes and you’re out” “feature” they added to Autopilot whereby if the Autopilot beeps at you more than 3 times to put your hands on the wheel, then it disables it until you stop, put the car in park and open a door. Simply having a warning message pop up on the instrument cluster is not sufficient warning. If you’re doing your job as a driver, you should have your attention on the road and your surroundings, not the instrument cluster. The original Autopilot would give you an audible and visual indication to put your hands on the wheel, and didn’t have a “3 strikes and you’re out” if you took too long. It would simply disengage it and then you could reset it without having to stop. I sure hope Rivian doesn’t implement the warning the way Tesla has.

One additional point, I really like how Tesla has a setting for how close to follow the car in front of you. I typically have it set at “1” - follow the closest. I’d previously had an Audi Q7 with adaptive cruise control that I seldom used because it would put too much distance between me and the car in front of me, causing other cars to merge in front of me. It was super annoying. Tesla on setting “1” is a safe but close distance that prevents that (most of time - you’ll alway have “that guy” who will merge regardless of whether there’s room or not!).

I too hate that Tesla 3 strikes for the exact reasons you give — had a 3 without it and now drive a new X with it, UGH. I laugh or sigh at how bad it is, like the worst kindergarten teacher imaginable. Where I differ is on on full autonomous. I want one as close to perfect as possible and that includes cheating a foot closer to the white line next to the shoulder when driving on a two lane road like I do here in Jackson, WY. But I, like you, prefer driving and I would only use it sporadically and with me always in control. Call it partial autonomous driving with a full system available. Just looking ahead.

 

[Whmorken]

The Rivians will have active driver monitoring via cameras: Time to Build by Rivian - Rivian Stories

I like it. If the car uses steering wheel sensors and a camera to make everything safer that is progress. Growing pains....

 

[jjwolf120]

My concern is, whether Tesla has SUCH a head start on autonomous driving that other EV players in the market will never catch up (or always be #2).

Never is a very long time. First mover advantages don't last forever.

 

[skyote]

The Amazon partnership is huge here. I was told that Amazon has a "vested interest" in Rivian's autonomous driving capabilities.

Amazon acquired Zoox & invested in Aurora, who recently acquired Uber's self driving unit. This leads me to believe that there is already A LOT of data & development at Rivian's disposal.

I think we're in good shape with Rivian's AD capabilities moving forward.

Speaking of Zoox & Aurora. For those that haven't already seen it, check this out:
https://www.theverge.com/2020/12/14...-self-driving-autonomous-vehicle-ride-hailing

Zoox is wholly owned by Amazon, but Amazon just has an investment stake in Aurora. Not sure the implications regarding access to tech & data (free or cost?), but definitely believe Rivian will benefit from this.

 

[Whmorken]

Speaking of Zoox & Aurora. For those that haven't already seen it, check this out:
https://www.theverge.com/2020/12/14...-self-driving-autonomous-vehicle-ride-hailing

Zoox is wholly owned by Amazon, but Amazon just has an investment stake in Aurora. Not sure the implications regarding access to tech & data (free or cost?), but definitely believe Rivian will benefit from this.

Aurora investment — what %? Amazon playing for keeps. Are you implying that Rivian/Amazon autonomous is being equipped and furthermore is un-stoppable?

 

[electruck]

Not sure the implications regarding access to tech & data (free or cost?), but definitely believe Rivian will benefit from this.

It will be interesting to see how this all plays out, especially with Zoox and Aurora depending on Lidar and Rivian recently seeming to move away from Lidar (at least for the R1, not sure about the Amazon vans). Perhaps Rivian will be able to add Lidar sensors as a post-delivery option in the future but this seems unlikely. If anything, they may have moved away from Lidar for this generation of product to allow Amazon's other partners to advance the self driving tech. This would allow Rivian to focus on other challenges in the near term. Or perhaps Amazon is just investing in multiple approaches to self-driving figuring at least one of them will be successful? So many possibilities here....

 

[skyote]

It will be interesting to see how this all plays out, especially with Zoox and Aurora depending on Lidar and Rivian recently seeming to move away from Lidar (at least for the R1, not sure about the Amazon vans). Perhaps Rivian will be able to add Lidar sensors as a post-delivery option in the future but this seems unlikely. If anything, they may have moved away from Lidar for this generation of product to allow Amazon's other partners to advance the self driving tech. This would allow Rivian to focus on other challenges in the near term. Or perhaps Amazon is just investing in multiple approaches to self-driving figuring at least one of them will be successful? So many possibilities here....

I don't think the plan is for R1 or Amazon vans to ever be fully autonomous. R1 is a driver-focused performance & adventure vehicle, and the Amazon vans will be using drivers/delivery personnel for the foreseeable future. I put both firmly in the "Driver Assistance" category, where level 2/3 helps the driver but won't take over for entire trips.

I am a believer in Lidar for full autonomy, and all of the "big boys" shooting for full autonomy use it (except Tesla), and have even acquired Lidar companies. Lidar technology is still improving while costs are coming down, and I don't think it will really be a fit for consumer vehicles for another 5+ years. I was surprised & excited when Rivian planned to use it, but I understand why it was abandoned...I think Rivian can reach their target autonomy capabilities without it, and Tesla is further proof of that.

Rivian's "Guardian Mode" patent is proof that they aspire to full autonomy, but I believe that's well down the road in future offerings.

I love watching this space & am excited about the future.

Also, here's a previous thread here with some interesting info:
https://www.rivianforums.com/forum/threads/partnerships-autonomous-driving-lidar.370/

 

[electruck]

I don't think the plan is for R1 or Amazon vans to ever be fully autonomous. R1 is a driver-focused performance & adventure vehicle, and the Amazon vans will be using drivers/delivery personnel for the foreseeable future. I put both firmly in the "Driver Assistance" category, where level 2/3 helps the driver but won't take over for entire trips.

I am a believer in Lidar for full autonomy, and all of the "big boys" shooting for full autonomy use it (except Tesla), and have even acquired Lidar companies. Lidar technology is still improving while costs are coming down, and I don't think it will really be a fit for consumer vehicles for another 5+ years. I was surprised & excited when Rivian planned to use it, but I understand why it was abandoned...I think Rivian can reach their target autonomy capabilities without it, and Tesla is further proof of that.

Rivian's "Guardian Mode" patent is proof that they aspire to full autonomy, but I believe that's well down the road in future offerings.

I love watching this space & am excited about the future.

Also, here's a previous thread here with some interesting info:
https://www.rivianforums.com/forum/threads/partnerships-autonomous-driving-lidar.370/

I think we're pretty much on the same page, any potential benefits to Rivian won't be near term.

 

[Whmorken]

I don't think the plan is for R1 or Amazon vans to ever be fully autonomous. R1 is a driver-focused performance & adventure vehicle, and the Amazon vans will be using drivers/delivery personnel for the foreseeable future. I put both firmly in the "Driver Assistance" category, where level 2/3 helps the driver but won't take over for entire trips.

I am a believer in Lidar for full autonomy, and all of the "big boys" shooting for full autonomy use it (except Tesla), and have even acquired Lidar companies. Lidar technology is still improving while costs are coming down, and I don't think it will really be a fit for consumer vehicles for another 5+ years. I was surprised & excited when Rivian planned to use it, but I understand why it was abandoned...I think Rivian can reach their target autonomy capabilities without it, and Tesla is further proof of that.

Rivian's "Guardian Mode" patent is proof that they aspire to full autonomy, but I believe that's well down the road in future offerings.

I love watching this space & am excited about the future.

Also, here's a previous thread here with some interesting info:
https://www.rivianforums.com/forum/threads/partnerships-autonomous-driving-lidar.370/

So helpful. Thanks.

 

[ElectricDan]

I don't think the plan is for R1 or Amazon vans to ever be fully autonomous. R1 is a driver-focused performance & adventure vehicle, and the Amazon vans will be using drivers/delivery personnel for the foreseeable future. I put both firmly in the "Driver Assistance" category, where level 2/3 helps the driver but won't take over for entire trips.

I am a believer in Lidar for full autonomy, and all of the "big boys" shooting for full autonomy use it (except Tesla), and have even acquired Lidar companies. Lidar technology is still improving while costs are coming down, and I don't think it will really be a fit for consumer vehicles for another 5+ years. I was surprised & excited when Rivian planned to use it, but I understand why it was abandoned...I think Rivian can reach their target autonomy capabilities without it, and Tesla is further proof of that.

Rivian's "Guardian Mode" patent is proof that they aspire to full autonomy, but I believe that's well down the road in future offerings.

I love watching this space & am excited about the future.

Also, here's a previous thread here with some interesting info:
https://www.rivianforums.com/forum/threads/partnerships-autonomous-driving-lidar.370/

I've been keeping an eye in this space for some time too. I too was disappointed when rivian removed the Lidar, first because I was concerned that it signaled defeat in their autonomous driving program, and secondly because we didn't see a commensurate decrease in price.

Those 2 comments aside I am excited about zoox and what it means for the driving space as a whole. However, im concerned that their data may not be valuable to Amazon or eventually rivian. All of the Zoox's tags, for their "if this than that" logic would have to be scrubbed against Rivians vocabulary of tags. Next the sensor suite is very different, and the geometry of the sensor collection for zoox has been matched in their gen3 and gen 5 vehicles. So rivian in a completely different form factor may not benefit from some of their driving data.

 

[skyote]

I've been keeping an eye in this space for some time too. I too was disappointed when rivian removed the Lidar, first because I was concerned that it signaled defeat in their autonomous driving program, and secondly because we didn't see a commensurate decrease in price.

Those 2 comments aside I am excited about zoox and what it means for the driving space as a whole. However, im concerned that their data may not be valuable to Amazon or eventually rivian. All of the Zoox's tags, for their "if this than that" logic would have to be scrubbed against Rivians vocabulary of tags. Next the sensor suite is very different, and the geometry of the sensor collection for zoox has been matched in their gen3 and gen 5 vehicles. So rivian in a completely different form factor may not benefit from some of their driving data.

Very true, there's a lot of "ifs" when it comes to what may or may not be valuable. I have experience with some of the underlying tech, but not the AD use case.

Tags would imply supervised machine learning, where as a lot of AD is now using unsupervised/deep learning/neural networks.

I would hope that field of view & relative position would be easily changed variables, to allow common algorithms to work for different types of sensors and sensor locations. I really have no idea how they do it, but there are a lot of really bright minds working on this stuff.

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