Input on 14-50 outlet install

[SANZC02]

I understand what you’re saying, but 240v plugs at camp sites get a lot of use over many years.

That is true but a completely different use case, those outlets are outside and used to power a camper not charge a vehicle at 80% for hours at a time.

The average camper uses 3.3 kW over 10 hours, not 9.6 kW per hour.

I’m just throwing this out as a cautionary tale, I am not saying it could not be a successful setup.

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[Zoidz]

With regards to NEMA 14-50 outlet installation, I recently reached out to several local electricians to get bids and one of them replied that they have stopped installing them if it's intended for EVSE because my local jurisdiction requires a GFCI breaker, which will cause nuisance tripping. Does this mean my only option is to hardware it?

GR

"WILL cause nuisance tripping"??? IMO it's hit or miss depending on the brand of the breaker. I also think the nuisance tripping is amplified out of proportion by some electricians. They don't want to deal with nuisance calls, lol. Call another electrician. It is correct that NEC requires a GFI.

I installed a 50 amp Square D GFI in the panel at my vacation house with a Hubbel 9450A (NEMA 14-50) and use the Rivian mobile charger for the time being. Zero trips all summer.

 

[Gamma rays]

You don't have to tell them why you want the outlet. Or tell them you are planning on taking up metal art welding as a hobby. Or you want to put an electric range in the garage for cooking in the summer.

"WILL cause nuisance tripping"??? IMO it's hit or miss depending on the brand of the breaker. I also think the nuisance tripping is amplified out of proportion by some electricians. They don't want to deal with nuisance calls, lol. Call another electrician. It is correct that NEC requires a GFI.

I installed a 50 amp Square D GFI in the panel at my vacation house with a Hubbel 9450A (NEMA 14-50) and use the Rivian mobile charger for the time being. Zero trips all summer.

I guess I should have been a bit more specific. The requirement for a GFCI breaker is for all outlets (including NEMA) to be installed in a garage. The nuisance tripping would be caused by any EVSE that has such feature built in. Based on my limited understanding, portable EVSE (vs. ones that can be hardwired) won't have that issue.

My desire to use a NEMA outlet on the Wallbox that I recently purchased is so that I can use a portable EVSE in the event the Wallbox dies unexpectedly (before I can get an electrician to replace it). It sounds like I might not have that option.

GR

 

[Zoidz]

I guess I should have been a bit more specific. The requirement for a GFCI breaker is for all outlets (including NEMA) to be installed in a garage. The nuisance tripping would be caused by any EVSE that has such feature built in. Based on my limited understanding, portable EVSE (vs. ones that can be hardwired) won't have that issue.

My desire to use a NEMA outlet on the Wallbox that I recently purchased is so that I can use a portable EVSE in the event the Wallbox dies unexpectedly (before I can get an electrician to replace it). It sounds like I might not have that option.

GR

The Rivian portable EVSE has a GFCI built in. The NEC requires a GFCI breaker, hence the double GFCI conundrum. I've had zero nuisance trips with the install. I have many more nuisance trips with the standard 120 volt GFCIs and 120 volt arc fault breakers in my homes. I have early version arc fault breakers that trip in a thunderstorm. I've replaced most of them with newer arc faults which has solved the problem.

If you want to be NEC compliant, or will be inspected, you need to install and deal with the potential double GFCI issue. How big is the shock risk if you don't have a GFCI outlet? Plugging in the EVSE it's probably minimal, you would almost have to intentionally stick your fingers in the plug gap to get shocked. The real issue is using the outlet with other devices, such as a welder, etc. The risk there is real. You may never intend to use the outlet with any other device, but what about the uninformed user when you ultimately sell the house? That's what the NEC is addressing.

 

[Eeyore]

I guess I should have been a bit more specific. The requirement for a GFCI breaker is for all outlets (including NEMA) to be installed in a garage. The nuisance tripping would be caused by any EVSE that has such feature built in. Based on my limited understanding, portable EVSE (vs. ones that can be hardwired) won't have that issue.

My son was really pissed off that the inspector made him put in GFCI breakers for his 2 pole breakers in his newly built shop. The problem, as my son saw it, was that the inspector saw the panel made up with regular breakers when he came to inspect for rough-in cover and he didn't say anything until he came back for final inspection. My son installed the GFCI breakers, had it reinspected, then changed them back afterwards. My son lives in Shoreline.

My desire to use a NEMA outlet on the Wallbox that I recently purchased is so that I can use a portable EVSE in the event the Wallbox dies unexpectedly (before I can get an electrician to replace it). It sounds like I might not have that option.

GR

Do you really need an electrician to replace a charger if it dies?

 

[Eeyore]

No. That’s an entire mobile charger for $400. They don’t sell just the 14-50 adapter

My apologies. I didn't quite grasp what you were suggesting. I don't think you'd be better off by leaving the adaptor plugged into the outlet and plugging the adaptor into it and unplugging it. I think the actual 14-50 outlet is more robust so could stand up to the plugging/unplugging cycles better than the adaptor/mobile charger connection.

 

[Redline]

My apologies. I didn't quite grasp what you were suggesting. I don't think you'd be better off by leaving the adaptor plugged into the outlet and plugging the adaptor into it and unplugging it. I think the actual 14-50 outlet is more robust so could stand up to the plugging/unplugging cycles better than the adaptor/mobile charger connection.

Yeah, I'm requesting a Hubble 14-50 outlet. I don't want this to happen:

 

[Eeyore]

I have no specs on duty cycle but have had the electricians tell me that these outlets are not designed to have plugs inserted and removed continuously and can cause them to loosen and start to arc. Using them for EV charging can be worse because of the load they are under.

Here is one place that mentions it as well. I’m not saying it can’t be done or what is considered a lot. Maybe 5 or 10 times a year not a problem. For me if I can spend 3 or 4 hundred on a charger and leave it plugged in it would be worth the piece of mind. As a matter of fact that is exactly what I did for my place in the desert.

The cheap outlets probably aren't made to stand up to many plugging/unplugging cycles, but the commercial grade outlets should be an issue. You can tell by feel how well the plug is held in the outlet.

As I see it, the main benefit of leaving the portable charger cord plugged in at the remote location is that you are assured it will be there when you visit and not left in your garage because you forgot to pack it. Yes, I'm guilty of that. Charged to 100%, drove 230 miles to my son's house then realized that I had left the charger plugged in at home. Lucky that the city of Shoreline offers complimentary charging at their city hall, 1 1/2 miles from his house.

 

[mikehmb]

Yeah, I'm requesting a Hubble 14-50 outlet. I don't want this to happen:

This happened to me. Please make sure you use an Industrial-rated plug from Hubbell or other. Not just “any Hubbell“ because they also make consumer (dryer, range) and commercial (light duty) plugs, but one rated for continuous use.

It will cost more, but it won’t burn your house down.

I don’t have the image handy, but mine looked exactly like the image in the lede of that video you posted. Melted, burned, and scary AF.

 

[Redline]

This happened to me. Please make sure you use an Industrial-rated plug from Hubbell or other. Not just “any Hubbell“ because they also make consumer (dryer, range) and commercial (light duty) plugs, but one rated for continuous use.

It will cost more, but it won’t burn your house down.

I don’t have the image handy, but mine looked exactly like the image in the lede of that video you posted. Melted, burned, and scary AF.

Like this?

https://www.amazon.com/Hubbell-HBL9...fos.006c50ae-5d4c-4777-9bc0-4513d670b6bc&th=1

 

[mikehmb]

Like this?

https://www.amazon.com/Hubbell-HBL9450A-Wiring-Grounding-Receptacle/dp/B0137HMGGS/ref=sr_1_3?hvadid=580842378678&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=9060341&hvnetw=g&hvqmt=e&hvrand=11250538851361089740&hvtargid=kwd-918801173427&hydadcr=3644_13538946&keywords=hubbell+nema+14-50+outlet&qid=1695096202&sr=8-3&ufe=app_do:amzn1.fos.006c50ae-5d4c-4777-9bc0-4513d670b6bc&th=1

Looks about right. I can’t get a picture of mine at the moment, but will try to snap one in the morning.

 

[pc500]

I move around rentals. 14-50 plugs work fine.

 

[Gamma rays]

My son was really pissed off that the inspector made him put in GFCI breakers for his 2 pole breakers in his newly built shop. The problem, as my son saw it, was that the inspector saw the panel made up with regular breakers when he came to inspect for rough-in cover and he didn't say anything until he came back for final inspection. My son installed the GFCI breakers, had it reinspected, then changed them back afterwards. My son lives in Shoreline.

Do you really need an electrician to replace a charger if it dies?

If it's as easy as replacing a regular household outlet, I think I can handle that. Anything more involved/complicated, I would leave it to the pros because I don't want to burn down the house or get electrocuted. Plus, having a backup option would be nice as it will take time for a new unit to be delivered even if I can handle swapping out the failed one.

GR

 

[Zoidz]

Like this?

https://www.amazon.com/Hubbell-HBL9450A-Wiring-Grounding-Receptacle/dp/B0137HMGGS/ref=sr_1_3?hvadid=580842378678&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=9060341&hvnetw=g&hvqmt=e&hvrand=11250538851361089740&hvtargid=kwd-918801173427&hydadcr=3644_13538946&keywords=hubbell+nema+14-50+outlet&qid=1695096202&sr=8-3&ufe=app_do:amzn1.fos.006c50ae-5d4c-4777-9bc0-4513d670b6bc&th=1

If you believe that it's not counterfeit. Nothing is counterfeit on Amazon, right? That vendor TYMXGHF also sells other high quality stuff. What could go wrong?

 

[Redline]

https://www.zoro.com/hubbell-recept...ngle-outlet-14-50r-black-hbl9450a/i/G2132541/

I’m sure you can source them from other places than Amazon..

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