Lithium shortage

[RIV206]

Interesting article on the Lithium/Cobalt shortage and the costs automakers are getting hit with. Doesn't help us with a potential future price increase but we'll see I suppose
https://www.thedrive.com/tech/43952/skyrocketing-lithium-costs-could-drive-up-ev-prices

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[IPTV65]

As a long time Albermarle and Livent share holder this is great news. As a Rivian reservation and share hold this is not great news.

 

[ajdelange]

Can’t say either of those has done particularly well in the last couple of months.

 

[HTownB]

As a long time Albermarle and Livent share holder this is great news. As a Rivian reservation and share hold this is not great news.

Governments, specifically those of Canada and the US are going to have some tough decisions to make on lithium mining. Seems more than a little hypocritical to push for EVs but require other countries to bare the burden of the environmental impact of mining of the requisite metals.

 

[Autolycus]

Governments, specifically those of Canada and the US are going to have some tough decisions to make on lithium mining. Seems more than a little hypocritical to push for EVs but require other countries to bare the burden of the environmental impact of mining of the requisite metals.

They need to dump a bunch of money into research on better sources and techniques for getting and recycling lithium. It’s readily available in the ocean, and we’re going to start having a whole lot of “dead” batteries with the stuff in it. In the short run, we need to mine more through traditional techniques, but in the 10+ year timeline, it may very well be possible to get all newly needed material from other sources.

 

[nc10]

Governments, specifically those of Canada and the US are going to have some tough decisions to make on lithium mining. Seems more than a little hypocritical to push for EVs but require other countries to bare the burden of the environmental impact of mining of the requisite metals.

I'd really like to see a lot more focus on conversion capacity, battery production in the US.

 

[srwaxalot]

The DOE is putting money in this. https://www.autonews.com/manufactur...-lithium-transform-north-americas-ev-industry

 

[DuckTruck]

Governments, specifically those of Canada and the US are going to have some tough decisions to make on lithium mining. Seems more than a little hypocritical to push for EVs but require other countries to bare the burden of the environmental impact of mining of the requisite metals.

I agree with you, however the governments of Canada and the U.S. recently made some tough decisions to slow, or stop much of our own oil production, thus requiring other countries to bare the burden of the environmental impact of extracting the requisite petroleum products that we can't seem to live without. Unfortunately, it seemed an easy choice for those who made it. While both industries may be nasty, I think even the haters would agree that we regulate the environmental impacts better than do most other producing countries around the world. That said, the "Not in my back yard!" movement is, and will remain alive and well for the foreseeable future.

I'm truly heartened by some of the U.S. based lithium recycling firms that have found ways to harvest, clean, and store used lithium, even before they have a viable secondary market for their salvaged materials. I also love that more and more clean renewable energy is coming on line. Now, we have to find the cleanest way to source the lithium and other materials needed to produce the current generation of batteries.

Just as scary to me as the environmental impacts of mining, drilling, extracting, and refining energy and storage device materials is the question of how we're going to generate enough electricity to power the world's expanding population and the coming transition to a growing fleet of EV's around the world. Tougher yet is how to do this while also cleaning up our output of nasty gasses and other waste, in order to treat our host planet and all of its guests better.

While only ~10% of our total energy comes from coal (with another 35% by oil), China's energy production from coal is sitting at 57% (with about another 20% generated by oil). According to the Council on Foreign Relations, China currently accounts for over half of the world's coal use, even if that has been abating some over the last ten years. While India may not use as much energy per person (yet), they get 55% of their energy as a nation from coal. These two countries are roughly one third of the global population. We all have an impact, but what these 2.5 Billion people and their governments do will be critical.

With China's programs to drastically increase their number of EV's, as well as electrifying more and more of their nation, I don't see how we satiate our world's ever-expanding need for electricity for all sources, with an expanding global population, without resorting to nuclear. To date, nuclear has been great, right up until it suddenly isn't. As with any electrical production devices, if they're not on our roofs (in the form of solar panels) the NIMBY mantra holds true. Even those who love wind power tend not to want three 80-foot rotors on 120-foot high towers making McNuggets out of every other bird that flies through their neighborhood. Very few want to lose their beautiful view of the horizon or hear the whirring of the big blades nearby. Coal and oil-burning plants and nukes bring up other levels of hatred, all for very good reasons.

Clearly, we need to be very wise and forward-looking when determining the best way to move to cleaner, electrified transportation. As discussed in this thread and elsewhere in these forums, this will require much to facilitate the batteries we'll need, and the power to charge them, along with all of our other clean endeavors. The lithium and batteries are but a portion of the challenge. For me, power is the biggest variable. If the increasingly more-frequent rolling blackouts, frozen turbines, rising temps, wildfires, and changing weather patterns haven't hit your radar yet, give it a few years. I've already trademarked my line of "Surf Las Vegas" swimwear, eyewear, clothing, and equipment. And they thought the Land Sharks already there are bad.....

https://www.cfr.org/in-brief/cop26-...oROLeg6sd2AjgbDZpDhu1NxJaXvwOSkhoCAO4QAvD_BwE

 

[RideAlong]

Rivian executives should ask : 'What would Pantagonia Do' ?

 

[ajdelange]

...making McNuggets out of every other bird that flies through their neighborhood.

That's nonsense from the opponents of wind. But nonetheless something that is still taken very seriously by producers. I've only visited one wind farm but they send someone out every day to count the birds (and bats) slain by the blades. It's virtually zip. More birds get killed flying into my windows than get killed at that wind farm.

 

[DuckTruck]

That's nonsense from the opponents of wind. But nonetheless something that is still taken very seriously by producers. I've only visited one wind farm but they send someone out every day to count the birds (and bats) slain by the blades. It's virtually zip. More birds get killed flying into my windows than get killed at that wind farm.

AJ,

Have you tried tinting you windows? ?
The tall glass towers of our world's cities likely do in more birds than do our wind tubines. This is especially true at night and when vision is obscured by weather.

The significant bird loss to wind turbines may be location specific and heightened at different times of the year, but I've read plenty and have seen the various shows and interviews with bird experts touting the tally. You are correct that wind opponents use scare tactics, as well, but turbine blades and birds are not a good mix.

"Wind turbines—some with 200-foot blades spinning up to 180 mph—are estimated to kill between 140,000 and 500,000 birds a year through accidental collisions, according to the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service. Jun 5, 2021 wsj.com"

https://www.wind-watch.org/news/2019/10/07/drastic-loss-of-bird-population-deeply-troubling/

Regardless of the bird loss, I still don't know of anyone who wants the sound or view of a turbine in their immediate vicinity.

 

[crashmtb]

AJ,

Have you tried tinting you windows? ?
The tall glass towers of our world's cities likely do in more birds than do our wind tubines. This is especially true at night and when vision is obscured by weather.

The significant bird loss to wind turbines may be location specific and heightened at different times of the year, but I've read plenty and have seen the various shows and interviews with bird experts touting the tally. You are correct that wind opponents use scare tactics, as well, but turbine blades and birds are not a good mix.

"Wind turbines—some with 200-foot blades spinning up to 180 mph—are estimated to kill between 140,000 and 500,000 birds a year through accidental collisions, according to the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service. Jun 5, 2021 wsj.com"

https://www.wind-watch.org/news/2019/10/07/drastic-loss-of-bird-population-deeply-troubling/

Regardless of the bird loss, I still don't know of anyone who wants the sound or view of a turbine in their immediate vicinity.

Wind turbines aren’t the half of it.
http://songbirdsos.com/about/messenger/

 

[DuckTruck]

Wind turbines aren’t the half of it.
http://songbirdsos.com/about/messenger/

Crash,

Thank you for the link. I checked out the trailer and hope to catch the entire show soon.

 

[crashmtb]

Crash,

Thank you for the link. I checked out the trailer and hope to catch the entire show soon.

It’s apparently on Netflix in the US.

 

[emoore]

AJ,

Have you tried tinting you windows? ?
The tall glass towers of our world's cities likely do in more birds than do our wind tubines. This is especially true at night and when vision is obscured by weather.

The significant bird loss to wind turbines may be location specific and heightened at different times of the year, but I've read plenty and have seen the various shows and interviews with bird experts touting the tally. You are correct that wind opponents use scare tactics, as well, but turbine blades and birds are not a good mix.

"Wind turbines—some with 200-foot blades spinning up to 180 mph—are estimated to kill between 140,000 and 500,000 birds a year through accidental collisions, according to the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service. Jun 5, 2021 wsj.com"

https://www.wind-watch.org/news/2019/10/07/drastic-loss-of-bird-population-deeply-troubling/

Regardless of the bird loss, I still don't know of anyone who wants the sound or view of a turbine in their immediate vicinity.

There been some studies that have promising results of significantly reducing bird loss by painting one of the blades a dark color.

I think we should do what we can to minimize bird loss but the alternative is much worse. I’d rather lose some birds than have them go extinct. Also windows and cats account for an order of magnitude more deaths to birds than wind turbines.

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