Only 11 Geothermal Plants Could Produce 10 times US Lithium Demand

[COdogman]

I know there are various ideas about what the future of battery tech will look like, but as long as Lithium is king, we should look for ways to produce it domestically when possible. This article, written by a Geologist, explains that in the course of generating electricity via geothermal brine from deep in the earth, we could extract the lithium from the brine and return the water and other minerals back into the earth. Doing so with only 11 plants located on the Salton Sea in California would produce 10 times what our current demand for lithium is in the US. This seems like a win-win situation with sustainable domestic electricity production and much needed lithium extraction. Anyone see a dark side to this that I am missing?

https://www.fastcompany.com/90735227/geothermal-plants-lithium-boost-ev-battery-industry

**Disclaimer** I am NOT a scientist. I am just a worn out 47 year old former bike messenger and Rugby player who has probably taken too many hits to the head and now owns a successful dog daycare. I love EVs and technology. Please take mercy on me and forgive any technical errors I may make when opening my big mouth.

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[Riviot]

**Disclaimer** I am NOT a scientist. I am just a worn out 47 year old former bike messenger and Rugby player who has probably taken too many hits to the head and now owns a successful dog daycare.

I love this. Any time I give medical advice or critique a doctor's orders or opinion, I always end with #NotADoctor

 

[crashmtb]

I love this. Any time I give medical advice or critique a doctor's orders or opinion, I always end with #NotADoctor

disclaimers are good

 

[sub]

Doing so with only 11 plants located on the Salton Sea in California would produce 10 times what our current demand for lithium is in the US. This seems like a win-win situation with sustainable domestic electricity production and much needed lithium extraction. Anyone see a dark side to this that I am missing?

Yes something feels off with those numbers. Why you would build "only 11 plants" if that would produce 10x more than you needed?

Why not start with 1?

 

[crashmtb]

Yes something feels off with those numbers. Why you would build "only 11" plants if that would produce 10x more than you needed?

Why not start with 1?

there is historical precedence

 

[SteveInBend]

Yes something feels off with those numbers. Why you would build "only 11 plants" if that would produce 10x more than you needed?

Why not start with 1?

Well, the article does say 11 "existing" geothermal plants. So it's not a matter of building 11 new plants and the authors are extrapolating the impact of extracting lithium at all the existing ones.

 

[COdogman]

Yes something feels off with those numbers. Why you would build "only 11 plants" if that would produce 10x more than you needed?

Why not start with 1?

I guess that leaves the door open for more demand and also there is the benefit of electricity generated just using the heat under our feet? So it’s not like more plants will do harm as far as I can tell.

 

[nc10]

. This seems like a win-win situation with sustainable domestic electricity production and much needed lithium extraction. Anyone see a dark side to this that I am missing?

It sounds promising and really interesting.

A lot of money and research is being spent to make this work, but not for the first time. (https://www.borregosun.com/story/2016/06/02/news/simbol-materials-files-for-bankruptcy/2361.html)

Not really a dark side. But, its new technology, sounds like the companies involved are all using new "direct Lithium extraction" technologies not proven at commercial scale yet. And it appears to be tied to geothermal, so both the Li side and geothermal side have to be successful long term, technically and economically. On the other hand, maybe the geothermal provides a lower cost enegry for the Li operation, haven't researched that deep. Have listened to a few podcasts, read a few articles, this Li source sounds like a challenging one to work with, due to impurities present, operating conditions required, probably some other stuff.

So many people are looking to get into the Li business right now. Can't keep track of them all, but lots of competition. New ones include one in North Carolina (Piedmont Lithium), Arkansas (Standard Lithium), a bunch in Nevada near the only existing US Li brine operation, Tesla apparently has some rights and technology to recover Li from clay in Nevada, there are projects in Canada, probably some others I haven't read about or not remembering. Current US Li companies have other US options. Not clear at all which options are the strongest.

Lots of money being invested, seems a good indicator. But Salton sea Li is not something to count on being the leading North America commercial option yet.

Another report I looked at, lists a few Salton Sea concerns on page 21 and 22
https://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy21osti/79178.pdf

more background

 

[IPTV65]

Recycling is where the focus needs to be with regards to lithium and other elements in batteries. Supply side is fine for now. Recycling to give a full lifecycle is what is needed to keep things rolling as electrification of the auto industry takes off.

“While devices that contain lithium can be recycled, there is no recycling technology capable of yielding lithium pure enough for use in new lithium ion batteries. Going forward, lithium-consuming industries will need to collaborate in order to develop a recycling processes and infrastructure that can better recover lithium and the other precious materials that go into lithium ion batteries”

From this article. https://blog.energybrainpool.com/en/is-there-enough-lithium-to-feed-the-need-for-batteries/

 

[nc10]

Supply side is fine for now.

Far, far from it. Supply << demand. And more EV penetration will help justify recycling research and investment. You always hear about hockey stick trends, but usually not real. This one really is a hockey stick.
https://www.benchmarkminerals.com/lithium-prices/

“While devices that contain lithium can be recycled, there is no recycling technology capable of yielding lithium pure enough for use in new lithium ion batteries.

I expect a lot of battery "reuse" in stationary applications initially.

Yes, definitely a concern. But there has been progress since this article. LInked article is 4 years old. It also mentions: The bigger issue is the growing demand for truly rare metals like cobalt and graphite. Hence Rivian, Tesla, most others are talking more about LFP batteries, reduces Ni, Co demand.

There is hope, for example
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/recycled-lithium-ion-batteries-can-perform-better-than-new-ones/#:~:text=The researchers found that batteries,last longer and charge faster.
and
https://www.redwoodmaterials.com/services

 

[Dark-Fx]

disclaimers are good

#NotADisclaimerist

 

[COdogman]

It sounds promising and really interesting.

A lot of money and research is being spent to make this work, but not for the first time. (https://www.borregosun.com/story/2016/06/02/news/simbol-materials-files-for-bankruptcy/2361.html)

Not really a dark side. But, its new technology, sounds like the companies involved are all using new "direct Lithium extraction" technologies not proven at commercial scale yet. And it appears to be tied to geothermal, so both the Li side and geothermal side have to be successful long term, technically and economically. On the other hand, maybe the geothermal provides a lower cost enegry for the Li operation, haven't researched that deep. Have listened to a few podcasts, read a few articles, this Li source sounds like a challenging one to work with, due to impurities present, operating conditions required, probably some other stuff.

So many people are looking to get into the Li business right now. Can't keep track of them all, but lots of competition. New ones include one in North Carolina (Piedmont Lithium), Arkansas (Standard Lithium), a bunch in Nevada near the only existing US Li brine operation, Tesla apparently has some rights and technology to recover Li from clay in Nevada, there are projects in Canada, probably some others I haven't read about or not remembering. Current US Li companies have other US options. Not clear at all which options are the strongest.

Lots of money being invested, seems a good indicator. But Salton sea Li is not something to count on being the leading North America commercial option yet.

Another report I looked at, lists a few Salton Sea concerns on page 21 and 22
https://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy21osti/79178.pdf

more background

Thanks for the additional info! The NREL report was interesting even though I couldn’t quite follow all the science there. It does seem to confirm that each of the (newer) types of geothermal brine extraction are more sustainable than the evaporation pond and hardrock mining methods.

I hope something comes of this.

 

[manitou202]

Looks like GM is involved with one of the Geothermal companies at the Salton Sea to explore the possibility of extracting lithium.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/samabu...es-for-us-lithium-production/?sh=60576f202fac

 

[COdogman]

Looks like GM is involved with one of the Geothermal companies at the Salton Sea to explore the possibility of extracting lithium.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/samabu...es-for-us-lithium-production/?sh=60576f202fac

That is interesting. I read in another article that Berkshire Hathaway is also involved with 10 out of the 11 plants there. Talk about hedging your bets…

 

[Max]

I was just listening to a podcast pushing for Geothermal saying gas and oil industry is already great at drilling, how about getting them to do the dirty deed instead of fighting them. Insisting there is nothing but upside for everyone. I am thinking we are sandwiched between a thin layer of atmosphere that keeps us from getting barbecued on top and a thin layer of earth crust keeping us from getting barbecued from the bottom. Let’s ask the guys that screwed up the top layer to keep poking holes in the bottom layer. What could possibly go wrong?

There seem to be a lot of lobbying lately on this. May be the lithium angle is just a part of that effort. I like cheap and abundant energy as much as the next guy but I like it safe and clean as well. All options should be explored but independent reviews should verify which ones have a better long term potential.

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