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usofrob

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BrentInCO

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That's also part of the reason I brought it up, is because it actually IS an example of the larger capacity per cell causing worse degradation. I don't know what they did when they went to 100D, but I haven't heard any problems with those.
That’s because the step change increase from 85 to a 100 kWh battery pack was a complete redesign of the battery pack, not just inserting higher density cells into the existing design (Rivian is doing the latter with the Max Pack).
 

Supratachophobia

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That's also part of the reason I brought it up, is because it actually IS an example of the larger capacity per cell causing worse degradation. I don't know what they did when they went to 100D, but I haven't heard any problems with those.
They added more cells.
 

Supratachophobia

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So, does the 100D have similar degradation to the 90D over it's life?
Nope. It's arguably the best pack they've ever made. Both from performance and reliability, but also longevity. It should also be noted, it's using those old reliable 18650 cells.
 

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hgpayne

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Well it then becomes a question of personal needs. Sounds like you need the Max, most or many won't. I also have a diesel car that has a range of 800 plus miles per tank. Have I ever used it? Oh hell no, my bladder begs to differ. The one thing that made me steer away from Max pack is that I place a priority on performance (Quad) rather than range and Max is not available in Quad Motor vehicles.

There is a YouTuber who got 342 out of a large Pack Quad motor on conserve at 70 MPH in Florida , so its obvious that YMMV .
That's why there are options. Decide what is important to you and what is not. You're right, to me range is more important than offroad capability or 0-60 sprints. To you and others it is the opposite. Neither is wrong in wanting what they want. We are paying a lot for these trucks. We should get what we want.
 

hgpayne

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This reminds me of when I installed my solar panels. Everyone I spoke to who had done said: “I wish I had put up a few more panels.”

After hearing that a few times, I called the company doing our installation and asked if there was room for more panels. They told me they didn’t want me to think they were overselling me, but that they could do it. 6 months in and my net electric expense is $24 (not including the charges for selling to the grid). Those extra panels were 100% worth it even before going EV.

I haven’t met anyone who wishes they had put up fewer panels.
I started out putting up "too many" panels. I didn't want to sell back to the power company at 2-5 cents / kWh when they charge 15-80 cents per kWh. That motivated me to get our first EV. We both liked it so much we got another EV so we each had an EV commuter. NOW I needed more solar so I added that extra 6 panels. My southern roof was maxed so the put them on the west side. West by Southwest as my house isn't exactly North-South square. Anyway that little boost was all I needed. We haven't paid an electric bill since 2016 and have been full EV only since 2017.
 

Supratachophobia

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I started out putting up "too many" panels. I didn't want to sell back to the power company at 2-5 cents / kWh when they charge 15-80 cents per kWh. That motivated me to get our first EV. We both liked it so much we got another EV so we each had an EV commuter. NOW I needed more solar so I added that extra 6 panels. My southern roof was maxed so the put them on the west side. West by Southwest as my house isn't exactly North-South square. Anyway that little boost was all I needed. We haven't paid an electric bill since 2016 and have been full EV only since 2017.
I went from 32 to 36 to 48 to 56 and I'll stop in May at 68. Never look back. And what a lot can't understand is that it's not all about the payback. Sometimes it's about the contribution, the freedom, and the message that a crap-ton of panels send when your utility jacks up rates 26%.
 

RivianDad2

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I went from 32 to 36 to 48 to 56 and I'll stop in May at 68. Never look back. And what a lot can't understand is that it's not all about the payback. Sometimes it's about the contribution, the freedom, and the message that a crap-ton of panels send when your utility jacks up rates 26%.
How about when your utility lobbies the state to allow them to levy a flat income-based fee on everyone? The CA legislature literally for all intents and purposes just shifted the federal solar tax credit from solar households to non-solar households in the form of a flat fee and reduction in energy prices.

Yes, it’s as corrupt and stupid as it sounds.
 

hgpayne

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I went from 32 to 36 to 48 to 56 and I'll stop in May at 68. Never look back. And what a lot can't understand is that it's not all about the payback. Sometimes it's about the contribution, the freedom, and the message that a crap-ton of panels send when your utility jacks up rates 26%.
We gave up and moved out of California when they decided to charge more if you make more so they didn't have to reduce their bottom line, charging the highest rates in the country. Poor people need power too and at the sky high rates of SDGE they cannot afford it. Even though I have all the solar I need for myself my monthly bill would still be over $100 to pay for someone else's electricity. No thanks, and see ya!
 

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RivianDad2

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We gave up and moved out of California when they decided to charge more if you make more so they didn't have to reduce their bottom line, charging the highest rates in the country. Poor people need power too and at the sky high rates of SDGE they cannot afford it. Even though I have all the solar I need for myself my monthly bill would still be over $100 to pay for someone else's electricity. No thanks, and see ya!
I’m okay with the state providing subsidies for low income homes. That’s not really what they did, just what they claimed. Their policies reduced the cost for rich non-solar homes and rural/inland homes that are larger compared to similarly priced urban/coastal homes and use more energy per square foot because it’s also 20 degrees hotter inland. All done at the expense of solar homes. They could have easily exempted solar homes or prorated the fees based on energy mix use, but they didn’t because taxing for solar use was the whole point.

You would think that couldn’t happen in a blue state dominated by urban and coastal areas, but it did. Just goes to show that Democrats can be bought by the carbon-spewing lobbyists too.

They’ve disincentivized solar and sent the message that earlier adopters of other green technologies like heat pumps can’t rely on the economic benefits of the conversion being kept in place.
 
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Supratachophobia

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How about when your utility lobbies the state to allow them to levy a flat income-based fee on everyone? The CA legislature literally for all intents and purposes just shifted the federal solar tax credit from solar households to non-solar households in the form of a flat fee and reduction in energy prices.

Yes, it’s as corrupt and stupid as it sounds.
Municipal electric. Let's just say they are extremely in favor of solar and they love over sizing.


Regarding the levy, I know that's been a sore spot with NEMA3.0, correct? I don't know the exact details. But I'm my opinion, the problem with the existing federal tax credit is that because your installer knows you are getting the credit, their cost is artificially inflated by what you would have saved. I say get rid of the credit as is, all together.
 

RivianDad2

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Municipal electric. Let's just say they are extremely in favor of solar and they love over sizing.


Regarding the levy, I know that's been a sore spot with NEMA3.0, correct? I don't know the exact details. But I'm my opinion, the problem with the existing federal tax credit is that because your installer knows you are getting the credit, their cost is artificially inflated by what you would have saved. I say get rid of the credit as is, all together.
The flat fee is charged to all households that are connected to the grid, so it applies to NEM 1.0 and 2.0 houses too. I don’t think the utilities like consumer solar (as opposed to their own solar farms), because it’s putting them out of business.

The tax credit incentivizes solar. Yes, some portion of it will cause increased costs, but a lot will just reduce the cost for consumers. It’s also what allows the industry to scale up and bring their costs down, which reduces consumer prices over the long-term similar to EVs. All new technologies have a curve until they get to scale. Given the societal costs of carbon-producing energies (just think of disaster relief and prevention alone), providing tax credits to accelerate green industries getting to a scale that is competitive with carbon-producing energy sources is probably one of the best investments the government can make.
 

Supratachophobia

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The flat fee is charged to all households that are connected to the grid, so it applies to NEM 1.0 and 2.0 houses too. I don’t think the utilities like consumer solar (as opposed to their own solar farms), because it’s putting them out of business.

The tax credit incentivizes solar. Yes, some portion of it will cause increased costs, but a lot will just reduce the cost for consumers. It’s also what allows the industry to scale up and bring their costs down, which reduces consumer prices over the long-term similar to EVs. All new technologies have a curve until they get to scale. Given the societal costs of carbon-producing energies (just think of disaster relief and prevention alone), providing tax credits to accelerate green industries getting to a scale that is competitive with carbon-producing energy sources is probably one of the best investments the government can make.
I respectfully disagree. The actual costs of solar have already plummeted in the last ten years, hovering around $1 per watt for materials. Assuming 50% for installation, that's insanely generous for a professional services industry that is used to 30% margins. In order for install costs to fall and truly normalize, we need to phase out the federal credit. I feel the same way about the EV credit since it's so convoluted now.

Unless we are going to truly go towards income based credits, which I'm totally a fan of (reward those that have less means, based on AGI, with more federal credits), then Id rather just not have anything. Besides, the current tax credit is just that, a credit. If you don't have the tax liability, which lower income people would not, then it's not benefiting you as much if at all.
 

Marchin_MTB

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Here is what I don’t understand about this test. Why is it that the large pack falls short of its EPA estimate by 10% but it’s something like 18% for the max? They are the same dual motor vehicle driven an almost identical loop. Are the EPA parametrs (correction factors) different for the max? Or is the last part of the test wherein the max pack vehicle drives without the large pack the culprit?

That would not explain why the dual motor max pack needs higher average efficiency than the dual motor large pack given @OutofSpecKyle capacity results for the respective packs (EPA range divided by OutOfSpecs capacity estimate). There is no way that can be the case and it was demonstrated in the test that the efficiencies are essentially identical.

what am I missing?
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