Max Pack vs Large Pack range test (by Out of Spec)

[DuoRivians]

Based on Kyle’s latest video, here’s what I gathered:

For either DM or PDM, if you have both motors active, eg in city speeds or in these drive modes snow, tow, all-terrain, or sport, you will see a greater discrepancy between max and large pack. The discrepancy will be closer to 50-60 miles.

The reason being that the rear motor in max pack is engaged and is more efficient than in the large pack.

Conversely, if you’re just cruising on the highway and only the front motor is engaged, you’ll see a discrepancy of just 20-30 miles.

So, if one’s needs includes lots of towing, off-roading, sport, or generally going slower than highway, the max pack could be worth it because you also get the more efficient rear motor.

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[240vPlug]

Isn't it then a question of the pack being software limited (like Tesla does) or the actual pack size is greater on the Max? Does anyone really know?? $10K is a lot of clams for just a delta of + or - 40 miles.

I have a feeling... Pure speculation here... This is what Rivian is doing. Seems like a lot of extra cost to have two different battery chemistry. If they are going for simplicity put max pack in all of them and software lock the large pack at 131 kwh usable.

Nobody really knows unless we get a dual motor large and pull the pack.

Doing this would be very beneficial to Rivian too because then they can sell an upgrade OTA to unlock extra capacity after delivery.

Will be interesting to see what they do.

 

[CaseyH]

I have a feeling... Pure speculation here... This is what Rivian is doing. Seems like a lot of extra cost to have two different battery chemistry. If they are going for simplicity put max pack in all of them and software lock the large pack at 131 kwh usable.

Nobody really knows unless we get a dual motor large and pull the pack.

Doing this would be very beneficial to Rivian too because then they can sell an upgrade OTA to unlock extra capacity after delivery.

Will be interesting to see what they do.

We do actually know.

I have a feeling... Pure speculation here... This is what Rivian is doing. Seems like a lot of extra cost to have two different battery chemistry. If they are going for simplicity put max pack in all of them and software lock the large pack at 131 kwh usable.

Nobody really knows unless we get a dual motor large and pull the pack.

Doing this would be very beneficial to Rivian too because then they can sell an upgrade OTA to unlock extra capacity after delivery.

Will be interesting to see what they do.

Isn't it known that the cells are different; ie Samsung 50G cells in large pack and 53G cells in the max pack. Out of Specs latest video seems to confirm this with the noted weight difference between the large and max packs they tested.

 

[240vPlug]

We do actually know.


Isn't it known that the cells are different; ie Samsung 50G cells in large pack and 53G cells in the max pack. Out of Specs latest video seems to confirm this with the noted weight difference between the large and max packs they tested.

50G to 53G is speculation. You have to listen very carefully to what Kyle says. I like to speculate and I think he does as well. He believes it's the 53G because "it's a known cell to be in the market"

Max pack had full size spare and underbody shield which explains weight difference.

Nobody knows for certain unless either Rivian confirms it or packs are removed from large and max pack trucks, disassembled, and then compared.

Funny he then goes into reviewing the EPA docs and even says the same thing I did "that he is not an expert"

Here is the video I did a month ago

 

[Budman]

I want to caution everyone to remember that this OOS video/"test" is just a single data point at one specific condition. All these you-tubers do a single "test" and make a video to state "this is the answer".

An EV is a complex device with many competing variables and components. Temperature is one huge variable and how the different mechanical systems respond can change the result significantly. For example, in the All Purpose vs Conserve efficiency data I've posted several times (see below) the results change significantly with temperature. If somebody like OOS does a single one-off test at 70 degrees you get one answer (Converse is much better than All Purpose). But if they did the test at 40 degrees you get a very different answer (No difference).

We really need data across a wider range of operating conditions to make meaningful comparisons. Single data points won't do it. Engineers don't design systems based off single data point tests, consumers shouldn't make large decisions off of single data point tests either.

 

[240vPlug]

I want to caution everyone to remember that this OOS video/"test" is just a single data point at one specific condition. All these you-tubers do a single "test" and make a video to state "this is the answer".

An EV is a complex device with many competing variables and components. Temperature is one huge variable and how the different mechanical systems respond can change the result significantly. For example, in the All Purpose vs Conserve efficiency data I've posted several times (see below) the results change significantly with temperature. If somebody like OOS does a single one-off test at 70 degrees you get one answer (Converse is much better than All Purpose). But if they did the test at 40 degrees you get a very different answer (No difference).

We really need data across a wider range of operating conditions to make meaningful comparisons. Single data points won't do it. Engineers don't design systems based off single data points tests, consumers shouldn't make large decisions off of single data points tests either.

I agree with this...its a datapoint. I can get 2.6 mi per kwh fairly easily in my quad conserve in mild conditions going 65-70.

I have enjoyed a lot of OOS content but this whole series of videos is disappointing from OOS.

He says he is not but most definitely is implying Rivian is strong arming or trying to discredit his testing procedures. He also implies their doing shady things with EPA.

It's too much opinion and not enough fact. Mostly a regurgitation in the last video of things that have already been discussed either here or by other YouTubers.

It's disappointing. I mean why share all that stuff about Rivian communications? I'm sure Rivian didn't give him the liberty to speak for them.

Not sure what to think about this whole series of videos.

 

[McMoo]

I want to caution everyone to remember that this OOS video/"test" is just a single data point at one specific condition. All these you-tubers do a single "test" and make a video to state "this is the answer".

An EV is a complex device with many competing variables and components. Temperature is one huge variable and how the different mechanical systems respond can change the result significantly. For example, in the All Purpose vs Conserve efficiency data I've posted several times (see below) the results change significantly with temperature. If somebody like OOS does a single one-off test at 70 degrees you get one answer (Converse is much better than All Purpose). But if they did the test at 40 degrees you get a very different answer (No difference).

We really need data across a wider range of operating conditions to make meaningful comparisons. Single data points won't do it. Engineers don't design systems based off single data point tests, consumers shouldn't make large decisions off of single data point tests either.

I agree multiple tests would be nice but max vs. large is almost entirely a capacity discussion (perhaps max is more efficient in the city with both motors engaged). We know the capacity difference so we know the expected range impact if we know efficiency.

 

[McMoo]

He also implies their doing shady things with EPA.

Because they are…this isn’t a new point, it’s been widely discussed here and elsewhere.

 

[Dark-Fx]

It's great to see a solid range test here. But it's the most frustrating results. I am an early pre-order holder who was so excited for the opportunity to pre-order a max pack to get me from my home in San Diego to my parents snow-bird place in mesa AZ, exactly 360 miles from my house without a charging stop. Now it appears that may not even be achievable in the real world. Does anyone think that trip is doable without a charging stop? Disappointed in what the max pack has become for range.
I delayed my delivery this fall because we are now planning a move out of state this spring so the max pack is looking more and more irrelevant to my situation.

You can probably make that trip at the speed limit in good weather. But it's going to be quicker to drive faster and take a short charging stop.

 

[Indy avocado]

I want to caution everyone to remember that this OOS video/"test" is just a single data point at one specific condition. All these you-tubers do a single "test" and make a video to state "this is the answer".

An EV is a complex device with many competing variables and components. Temperature is one huge variable and how the different mechanical systems respond can change the result significantly. For example, in the All Purpose vs Conserve efficiency data I've posted several times (see below) the results change significantly with temperature. If somebody like OOS does a single one-off test at 70 degrees you get one answer (Converse is much better than All Purpose). But if they did the test at 40 degrees you get a very different answer (No difference).

We really need data across a wider range of operating conditions to make meaningful comparisons. Single data points won't do it. Engineers don't design systems based off single data point tests, consumers shouldn't make large decisions off of single data point tests either.

It's not a definitive test, but it's done in the real world with all the real world variability that comes with a 300mi drive (wind fluctuations, speed fluctuations, elevation, temperature, etc.)

And given that the 2 trucks were treated in identical ways, there's no reason to believe one was given more favorable treatment.

The resulting data is in line with Rivian EPA data.

The result is that, with a relatively high degree of confidence, the max pack has 20-25mi more range on a long distance drive at 70mph in cool temperatures.

Based on everything we currently know, it's unlikely for this delta to be significantly different at different temperatures or modestly different speeds. There is a small chance that at very high (or as as suggested by EPA data very low) speeds the difference may grow. But I would not count on it.

Kyle is trying to be very clear on what is speculation vs fact. All the data shows the max pack capacity doesn't account for the entirety of the advertised range difference. And that's OK, but people should know.

For me, capacity and charging is more important than range - when towing, the trailer knocks efficiency down to abysmal levels, as the trailer is almost universally going to dominate the aerodynamic drag. It may also mitigate some of the drivetrain "highway" efficiency efforts.

I won't knock anybody who wants to purchase the max pack. I do believe there is some legitimate value there. I don't see how there is more than a $1-3k of value to my use cases. And if the average charging rate is any worse than the large pack, then it may be of negative value to me.

 

[BigE]

This is about what I assumed the difference would be and still ultimately went with the max. My reasons were the following: 1. Over time, as the battery degrades, I’ll still be happy getting 300+ miles out of the max, but would be cutting it too close getting 270 out of the large, 2. If I drive 75-80mph, the large might struggle on a 250-260 mile round trip, 3. Pushing the limits of the battery and supercharging degrades the battery faster, so pushing a large battery would create the problems I’m concerned about whereas the max is less likely to degrade over time in my use case, 4. $10k isn’t really $10k when I use the car for work and can write-off a significant portion of the cost in year 1.

Your forgetting, a denser battery degrades faster. So theoretically, the Max Pack will degrade faster than the Large Pack. Also, warranty is less on the Max pack.

 

[Supratachophobia]

We do actually know.


Isn't it known that the cells are different; ie Samsung 50G cells in large pack and 53G cells in the max pack. Out of Specs latest video seems to confirm this with the noted weight difference between the large and max packs they tested.

Yes, I have the 53 confirmed from another 3rd party source. But I think Samsung does it weird and the 50 is actually 4900 ah and the 53 is 5200ah.

 

[RivianDad2]

Your forgetting, a denser battery degrades faster. So theoretically, the Max Pack will degrade faster than the Large Pack. Also, warranty is less on the Max pack.

Your forgetting, a denser battery degrades faster. So theoretically, the Max Pack will degrade faster than the Large Pack. Also, warranty is less on the Max pack.

As others have stated, the data is mixed on that point. There’s also the issue that with the Large battery, I’d be outside the 20%-80% range more often (and by more) and/or using supercharging more often, both of which degrade the battery. For me, the Max will help me protect the battery.

As far as the warranty goes, the only difference is that pairing the Quad with the Larger extends the warranty from 8/150 to 8/175 (for The Dual Motor Large and Max have the same warranty). That’s meaningless to me. I also don’t interpret that as Rivian having more confidence in the Large battery; I interpret that as Rivian deciding it needed to give something extra to the Quad battery warranty because of the additional year on the overall warranty. BTW, all of this extra warranty on the Quad business is a bit silly. The cost of an extended warranty is pretty low all things considered (I.e. I can get 10/100 for less than the Quad upgrade cost).

 

[waitingonanr1s]

Indeed. At least Highway Assist worked beautifully and made it easy.



Thanks. My first stop was definitely Burlington. It was really fun though since the 200 kW units were down, so I was stuck on the 125 kW shared units that only do 80 kW on a Rivian (200A cables). The parking lot was also a thick sheet of ice...so glad I got out before the 2nd wave of the storm hit. I was basically trying to outrun the storm until I hit Salina where I stayed ahead of it.

Just did this drive back from Hays to Denver yesterday. I saw how bad the recent plugshare reviews were for Burlington, and Flagler was showing only 2 up at 50 kw. I decided to top off to 94% at Colby (no one waiting on my space) so I could skip both and charge at Limon. Colby is also much cheaper since EA still charges by the minute (no one else does in KS from my experience). Limon worked well and I was the only one charging until another R1T pulled up as I left.

We really need some additional charging options in eastern CO.

 

[Eric9610]

As others have stated, the data is mixed on that point. There’s also the issue that with the Large battery, I’d be outside the 20%-80% range more often (and by more) and/or using supercharging more often, both of which degrade the battery. For me, the Max will help me protect the battery.

As far as the warranty goes, the only difference is that pairing the Quad with the Larger extends the warranty from 8/150 to 8/175 (for The Dual Motor Large and Max have the same warranty). That’s meaningless to me. I also don’t interpret that as Rivian having more confidence in the Large battery; I interpret that as Rivian deciding it needed to give something extra to the Quad battery warranty because of the additional year on the overall warranty. BTW, all of this extra warranty on the Quad business is a bit silly. The cost of an extended warranty is pretty low all things considered (I.e. I can get 10/100 for less than the Quad upgrade cost).

Just out of curiosity, who offers an extended warranty that covers battery and motors. I have searched everywhere and not been able to find one. All of the ones available specifically exclude the motors and batteries. Did this search a while ago for Teslas. I know Legacy manufacturers offer extended warranties that cover these items but it is in house only.

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