Regenerative braking - revisited

[CrazyOne]

I wonder if a lot of people's dislike to the regenerative breaking stems from an underutilization of ACC (Adaptive cruise control)? I'll use ACC nearly every waking moment of driving, even on city & residential streets.

When the brake pedal is needed, it's used. Otherwise if I feel I need to decelerate before the truck recognizes it needs to, I'll just bump the stalk up to cancel ACC and feather the accelerator as needed.

My foot's hardly ever on the accelerator.

I use cruise/ACC very often. Once I reach the speed I want, I set it on all my cars, ACC or not. Two have ACC, third does not. Thets the only reason I even have a license. Else I would speed everywhere and lose the license.

With other cars, I have stages accelerate-> Maintain speed -> Coast -> brake phases. The coast phase is very hard with Rivian. I find myself looking at the I gauge often. Coasting is the most efficient form of travel. The longer you can coast, the more you save on electrons.

I suspect blended braking system was hard to implement for Tesla and Rivian. During their start up phases it would have cost them a significant part of the development budget to perfect it. Once they started without it, they stuck to it

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[PBRAZ]

I'm torn on it, but at the end of the day Rivian has to use every opportunity to generate electrons. In the time it takes to move from accelerator to brake in TPD, your foot is already off the accelerator in OPD, allowing the latter to generate more charge over the course of a trip.

I back out of an inclined driveway at home and it's weird having to use the accelerator to "coast" backwards. Keep on thinking the e-brake is on. I don't love it, but when you consider the above I have to respect it.

 

[CommonSense]

The question I would ask is how many of the people who don't like the regenerative breaking have driven a manual transmission extensively? I think driving the Rivian is very similar to driving with a manual transmission. It took me a very short time to adjust.

I'm the OP , I currently own four cars that are stick shift and have been driving stick for 30+ years. I don't think this is the right counter-argument:

a) as a stick driver, I would more miss true coasting (clutch in and/or in neutral). But as I said - I can easily live without that, that's not my main point
b) I frequently encounter a bucking situation where I am being jostled in the vehicle in a way that makes it hard to precisely feather the pedal as required and (unlike in a stick shift ).

The b) phenomena is kind of like when you have a clutch and you let it out a bit too fast and the car bucks and you lose your spot on the clutch. But that is broadly self correcting - the engine either stalls or you pushed the clutch to disengaged. In the Rivian it is triggered by an external bump and you can get stuck in a positive feedback loop where you can buck a bunch of times.

Yes, I'm probably setting myself up for it by driving sport - low, I'm sure it would be much less likely to buck if I were driving in a softer suspension mode. And yes, I now frequently shift to cruise control when facing those bumpy sections of road.

I 100% understand the argument that taking away choice is 'easier' for the masses. I just wish I could have back better control over coasting vs. braking , the way my other EV works.

 

[teartags]

I

• We should be able to turn off regen in snowy situations.

I won't have my R1T for another month and I've never driven an EV. I see the above statement all the time on here and it always makes me wonder - wouldn't this cause the 7k lb. vehicle to just coast down the mountain with no "check" on the speed? When I'm going down a snowy pass with an automatic transmission, I immediately shift into manual and then downshift so that I'm "engine braking" on my way down. I try to use the friction brakes as little as possible.
Again, no experience here, so I'm genuinely curious how this would work.

 

[TollKeeper]

The question I would ask is how many of the people who don't like the regenerative breaking have driven a manual transmission extensively? I think driving the Rivian is very similar to driving with a manual transmission. It took me a very short time to adjust.

Drive one daily... And the regen braking aint nothing like a manual.

 

[Dark-Fx]

And yes, I now frequently shift to cruise control when facing those bumpy sections of road.

As someone who drove stick a lot in the past, my recommendation is don't do this, get more practice with it and learn how to stop it from happening.

 

[docwhiz]

In the 19-page "I cancelled my R1S" thread, there was a comment:

I was worried about 1 pedal driving for all of 5 mins on my first ever time driving a Rivian. I’ve had it for two weeks now and I love it. Couldn’t imagine not having it.

I've had my R1S for six months and I dislike how regenerative braking was implemented on the Rivian. It has grown to become one of my biggest dislikes.

I much prefer Porsche's regen braking setup , which drives like a regular car - the vehicle coasts as you lift off the accelerator and then regen brakes when you push on the brake pedal, pushing harder on the brake pedal engages the actual brakes after you are at max regen.

I'm not sure why Rivian believes 'coasting' is not a valuable driving mode that would not be missed.

a) it's more efficient. It is a bit hard to hit the 'not accelerating' , 'not regen braking' sweet spot on the Rivian, so in reality you're just oscillating back and forth between them. Maybe without an equivalent of any engine drag this would be unnerving?

b) bumpy roads can be challenging in the Rivian. It's really hard to maintain that tight sweet spot when bouncing around in your seat - you hit a bump , decelerate, foot goes in , vehicle accelerates, foot lifts off, vehicle decelerates (and that cycle repeats for a good 4-5 times.

I can live with a) of course, it's a bit jarring to switch back and forth between the Rivian and my other cards, it's more b) that is a real problem for me, it's harder to drive the Rivian smoothly , compared to a normal car.

If you have to put your foot on the brake to regen then it's not "one pedal driving".
I love one pedal driving.

 

[CommonSense]

As someone who drove stick a lot in the past, my recommendation is don't do this, get more practice with it and learn how to stop it from happening.

I've tried to debunk the 'I drove stick' thing in another reply - I've driven stick for > 30 yrs and currently own 3 stick shift cars (I think I said 4 earlier, but forgot that I traded my WRX STI in when I picked up the Rivian).

I've explained exactly why it happens to me - no amount of 'practice' is going to stop me from bouncing in my seat and having my foot move on the pedal. Sure, maybe I can practice 'girding' myself for the bumps and not have my foot move as much. Since I'm stuck with one pedal - I've described the corrective actions that I've come up with to mitigate the situation:
a) either use cruise control
b) use a mode where the throttle response is significantly turned down and the suspension is softer

I'm pretty sure most of us understand feathering / smooth on-smooth off for pedals. I learned to drive with a pendulum on the dash and I'm teaching my daughter that way. I'm personally totally fine in the Rivian except when I'm bouncing in the seat. Maybe I could 'practice' my way into not bouncing in the seat so foot doesn't move uncontrollably as much - more practically I just need to use a mode that reduces the bumps and throttle response in the conditions.

But back to first principles - my argument is basically: Having driven both, back and forth on a daily basis between the two models for half a year now - I much prefer / enjoy having separate controls for acceleration and deceleration, rather than a unitary control. And then I cited one negative effect of the unitary control that I've experienced.

So it is a bit ironic for the stick-shift folks to say: eh, I went from three controls to one, it's the same thing. Yes but no, learning how to feather a pedal - sure. Having discretionary control over the vehicle's functions, not the same at all. Why did you want a stick shift in the first place? Fuel economy or vehicle control?

Realistically - Rivian isn't going to change a thing and it isn't a deal breaker for 90%+ of us, certainly not me.

Summarizing the comment section so far - and I really appreciate that folks kept it pretty civil for a very binary like it / don't like it topic , we have:

50% Love it. "If you don't love it , then you must be doing it wrong."
50% Eh, it could be better. "I've had the car for 10K+ miles, and the car is still hard to drive as smoothly as my previous car and people are getting car sick."

I would posit that building a car where 50% of the people cannot get it right after a year of ownership is perhaps not ideal?

There are a lot of useful suggestions that folks contributed here, to summarize:
a) using cruise control is going to be very smooth (and it works well off highway)
b) using 'conserve' or other modes that dampen the throttle response also help.

And yes, I'm self admittedly a jack*ss for ripping around country roads that are under construction in sport / low mode and then whining that it is hard to control the throttle perfectly as my and my kids heads are bouncing off the roof. Maybe I need to see how Baja trophy truck drivers do it - though I'm pretty sure they don't go into a full regen braking if their foot lifts off the pedal on a bump...

 

[Dark-Fx]

I've tried to debunk the 'I drove stick' thing in another reply - I've driven stick for > 30 yrs and currently own 3 stick shift cars (I think I said 4 earlier, but forgot that I traded my WRX STI in when I picked up the Rivian).

And I think it's hilarious that you have issues with the regen braking in your Rivian as a fellow stick driver, which is why I put that in my comment. Because it's not the truck.

I've explained exactly why it happens to me - no amount of 'practice' is going to stop me from bouncing in my seat and having my foot move on the pedal.

Maybe pull on your shoulder belt a little bit to tighten your lap belt better. You did say you were an amatuer racecar driver right? Do what you gotta do.

 

[ebarke]

I'm the OP , I currently own four cars that are stick shift and have been driving stick for 30+ years. I don't think this is the right counter-argument:

a) as a stick driver, I would more miss true coasting (clutch in and/or in neutral). But as I said - I can easily live without that, that's not my main point
b) I frequently encounter a bucking situation where I am being jostled in the vehicle in a way that makes it hard to precisely feather the pedal as required and (unlike in a stick shift ).

The b) phenomena is kind of like when you have a clutch and you let it out a bit too fast and the car bucks and you lose your spot on the clutch. But that is broadly self correcting - the engine either stalls or you pushed the clutch to disengaged. In the Rivian it is triggered by an external bump and you can get stuck in a positive feedback loop where you can buck a bunch of times.

Yes, I'm probably setting myself up for it by driving sport - low, I'm sure it would be much less likely to buck if I were driving in a softer suspension mode. And yes, I now frequently shift to cruise control when facing those bumpy sections of road.

I 100% understand the argument that taking away choice is 'easier' for the masses. I just wish I could have back better control over coasting vs. braking , the way my other EV works.

If you want to coast for a longer period of time, just hold the gear selector up slightly for 2 seconds and it will shift to neutral and you can coast. When you want to slow down again or speed up, just tap it down into drive and continue. I do this in certain areas I drive all the time. I know the exact spots to disengage and re-engage. Do it in the tesla as well, which works a little easier than the rivian. If you have acc on, it won't shift to N, but just turn it off, and you have to then hold it up for 2 secs to shift to N

 

[Craigins]

I see a lot of comments about bouncing on rough roads.

Are you slight of build with small feet?

As a larger individual it would take my R1T spontaneously flipping, like it is known to do, to remove my foot from the pedal. Your weight should be supported with your left leg, foot on the dead pedal. My feet are large so my heel rests on the ground and i press the pedal with flexing at the ankle. On long trips I am usually barefoot(i only wear flipflops anyways) and can even use my big toe.

Even if there was a 2 pedal system you'd still have an issue due to the power of the vehicle. You wouldn't get the slowdown from braking but you'd get acceleration from landing on the pedal.

 

[mtberman]

I've had an Audi e-tron for the last 4 years and got my R1T dual motor last month. I agree with others who posted about the e-tron, Taycan, etc. They have the best regen systems, intuitive and easy to drive while scavenging massive amounts of electricity and never overheating. I have already noticed my new truck gives up some regen, apparently due to heat issues, after only 10-12 miles of downhill. The e-tron will go on recharging indefinitely on those same hills.

Why is this important? Because coasting is the most efficient state for an EV, and doing so a non-issue with other EVs.

The e-tron is a zen, driving experience that seamlessly combines coasting and regeneration. You don't have to show someone how to drive it; it's intuitive. The Rivian, on the other hand, constantly dishes out little doses of whiplash to remind you that you bought a Rivian and you need to be verrrry careful with that pedal at all times. You can never really relax.

Like the OP, I really hate Rivian's insistence on making a new vehicle with old-tech, legacy OPD regeneration instead of integrating the brake pedal like everyone else. However, and like many others here, I was able to adapt to it. It's not that hard and is a compromise I am willing to make to get all the other benefits of my new R1T.

 

[SSteveEV]

I’ll mention my mantra that “The accelerator is not an on/off switch.” You learn that quickly when learning to drive stick. What happens if you wind out to redline in 1st gear and then lift completely off? Do that a few times and you quickly learn to find and maintain the sweet spot position Instead of lifting off.

Being used to that and hydrostatic tractor transmission, I find the Rivian implementation of OPD pretty awesome and easy to use. I accept that your mileage may vary.

Fun comparison of your vehicles, but how often do you try to coast that tractor off an exit ramp?

My main use case is coasting into small towns where the speed limit drops from 55 to 40 to 30 to a stop sign. Used to be able to lift off a couple miles from the stopsign and go from 65 to 20 at the stop.

 

[Steve A.]

In the 19-page "I cancelled my R1S" thread, there was a comment:

I was worried about 1 pedal driving for all of 5 mins on my first ever time driving a Rivian. I’ve had it for two weeks now and I love it. Couldn’t imagine not having it.

I've had my R1S for six months and I dislike how regenerative braking was implemented on the Rivian. It has grown to become one of my biggest dislikes.

I much prefer Porsche's regen braking setup , which drives like a regular car - the vehicle coasts as you lift off the accelerator and then regen brakes when you push on the brake pedal, pushing harder on the brake pedal engages the actual brakes after you are at max regen.

I'm not sure why Rivian believes 'coasting' is not a valuable driving mode that would not be missed.

a) it's more efficient. It is a bit hard to hit the 'not accelerating' , 'not regen braking' sweet spot on the Rivian, so in reality you're just oscillating back and forth between them. Maybe without an equivalent of any engine drag this would be unnerving?

b) bumpy roads can be challenging in the Rivian. It's really hard to maintain that tight sweet spot when bouncing around in your seat - you hit a bump , decelerate, foot goes in , vehicle accelerates, foot lifts off, vehicle decelerates (and that cycle repeats for a good 4-5 times.

I can live with a) of course, it's a bit jarring to switch back and forth between the Rivian and my other cards, it's more b) that is a real problem for me, it's harder to drive the Rivian smoothly , compared to a normal car.

I didn't think I would like it, but I LOVE IT! I consider it a failure on my part if I have to hit the brake pedal. ;-)

Obviously, it's highly dependent upon your driving style and roads you drive. My daily commute is 100+ miles more than half of which are highway miles spent on ACC but even the country roads that are 30 mph I set ACC to 40 mph and use the -/+ controls on the steering wheel when approaching/leaving the apex of a sharp turn.

FWIW, my Audi Q7 had 70k+ miles on it when I got my R1S and gave it to my daughter and it still has original OEM brake pads on it, which shows even w/ ICE vehicles I minimize my brake pedal usage. ;-)

The other day when I was rotating my R1S tires and had to run to AutoZone to pick up a larger 2nd floor jack, I had to take my old Expedition and it seemed like it coasted forever! Hated going back to 2 pedal driving!

 

[Willyspu]

The R1S is our 4th EV over 8 years (2 Chevy Bolts and a Volvo XC40 Recharge). When we first tried driving with OPD it was very similar as when we learned to drive a stick shift/clutch. Jerky and uneven. After a short amount of time we learned to regulate the accelerator so the car drove smoothly. Since those first couple of months I have rarely touched the brake pedal on any of those cars. When driving a car without OPD the coasting part makes the car feel slightly out of control.

Like it or not, OPD is a more controlled way of driving.

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