The Worst Thing Rivian Lifted from Tesla

[Attesan997]

Your single vehicle in no way means that concerns about quality control are subjective. As I said, I've owned two Model Ys in short order. The first had a super high pitched whine while it was preconditioning to supercharge that was incredibly uncomfortable. The second does not and is all around great. Andy Slye's recent video discusses issues he's found with his very recent MY, some of which can be found on vehicles going several years back :



Would I have found the whine on that first Model Y if I test drove? Possibly if it was a common issue and I read about it online. I can tell you for sure I would have refused Andy's vehicle.

Part of this is that Telsa is known for mediocre quality and consistency. Some of the folks that get out tools to measure panel gaps would find similar issues on other vehicles but there are some legit issues that would never make it past any other QA check. So I get it when some folks chime in that they had no issues but then I get annoyed thinking about the crooked hood I've had to see every day for the past few years.

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[ironpig]

When I picked up my Rivian I drove it around and confirmed all the basics worked and I knew I had 7 days to return it. Although I'm not sure exactly how that would have worked if I wanted my traded in car back....

For comparison, my Ford F150 Lightning arrived yesterday. Same exact system as Rivian. I went to the dealer and I could drive the car around and check it out, complete purchase and then take it home. (ultimately I decided not to purchase the Lightning).

I don't think this is Rivian or Tesla specific. All manufacturers are moving more and more towards this model of ordering cars and picking them up. Ford has said as much about their electric car division.

Also, I don't think this is a big deal. They are in the very early stages of building a car company and they are doing their best to make cars available for people to experience and also get deliveries of custom ordered trucks to customers.

I think in the future if you live near a service center there might be the option to drive trucks in "inventory" prior to purchase, but right now I think it's unrealistic for them to set up dealer lots so you can try a car before you buy it.

 

[Jehorton]

Your single vehicle in no way means that concerns about quality control are subjective. As I said, I've owned two Model Ys in short order. The first had a super high pitched whine while it was preconditioning to supercharge that was incredibly uncomfortable. The second does not and is all around great. Andy Slye's recent video discusses issues he's found with his very recent MY, some of which can be found on vehicles going several years back :



Would I have found the whine on that first Model Y if I test drove? Possibly if it was a common issue and I read about it online. I can tell you for sure I would have refused Andy's vehicle.

Is Andy’s from the new giga texas plant? If so I’d imagine they still need to work our minor defects from there. And yes it is subjective. Mine was fine. I could sit here and use my example and say all teslas are fine based off of my delivery. That’s obviously wrong. But my example is subjective, just like you saying your experience is the same as most. It’s not

 

[ironpig]

Yeah seriously, this is a much bigger problem. Something sold as an 'off road capable adventure vehicle' with no serviceability or parts support? Ridiculous.

It's a very yuppie car, no doubt about it. I plan to use it almost entirely on road but the implication that "don't worry, nothing ever breaks and we have service if it does" doesn't give me a great vibe for owning this thing out of warranty.

Having owned a few electric cars and now the R1T, I start to look at them more like iPhones.

1. You always want the latest version you can get (Nobody wants to buy a vintage iPhone and the same goes for 99% of EVs)

2. Battery efficiency is king

3. They are not built to last forever and the manufacturer doesn't want you to repair or upgrade it yourself. (sorry Rivian, but it's true)

 

[thrill]

Part of this is that Telsa is known for mediocre quality and consistency. Some of the folks that get out tools to measure panel gaps would find similar issues on other vehicles but there are some legit issues that would never make it past any other QA check. So I get it when some folks chime in that they had no issues but then I get annoyed thinking about the crooked hood I've had to see every day for the past few years.

The raging question to me is HTF does any *visible* or *audible* issue get through Rivian's quality process? How do loose, or missing(!), bolts get to the end of the line? That much should be table stakes.

 

[Engi_Nerd]

Is Andy’s from the new giga texas plant? If so I’d imagine they still need to work our minor defects from there. And yes it is subjective. Mine was fine. I could sit here and use my example and say all teslas are fine based off of my delivery. That’s obviously wrong. But my example is subjective, just like you saying your experience is the same as most. It’s not

Fremont.

 

[yizzung]

The one thing I truly despise about purchasing a Tesla was how ridiculous it is to have to purchase such an expensive vehicle from a company with known terrible quality control without being able to drive it first. For example, many of the newer Model Ys have started exhibiting motor whine that is much louder than previous models. This is no doubt a result of Tesla relentlessly cutting costs, trying to find the absolute bottom customers will accept. The consumer has no way to screen for dynamic defects like these before signing, and just has to drive away with any squeaks, rattles, whistles, vibrations, and misalignments their copy was blessed with. This approach hugely lowers the bar for manufacturing, essentially leaving it up to the customer to wrestle with service to work out the last 5-10% of QC. At the end of the day, for us, all the anxiety they've removed by streamlining the actual purchase process was just deferred to the drive home, nervously waiting to see what it is you are actually stuck with.

I am very disappointed to see Rivian copy this model that is so hostile to the consumer. If you have faith in your product, you should let people test drive THEIR ACTUAL TRUCK before signing for it, similar to legacy auto makers. Their claimed "full refund" return period, similar to Tesla's old policy, is of no real value given that it always takes weeks to receive your first service appointment. It sounds like there are several somewhat common issues with people's trucks pulling to the right, vibrating at speed, whistling due to bad window seals, and squeaking or tocking suspension that would make a test drive incredibly informative. People should know what they are signing up for.

The legacy auto model that you're advocating for has pretty expensive inventory holding costs, which is why many are trying to move away from it.

In the dealer-based world, there's the overhead cost of the physical space needed to store significantly more cars. They have to insure each vehicle. They have to fix anything that happens to it while it sits on a lot gathering dust. They have to wash them (sometimes repeatedly).

The average car dealership loses about $40 in profit per day per vehicle that they maintain in their inventory. Multiply that times every podunk town where you have to have a dealership, then multiply that times all of the color/configuration combos that you'd need to have on-hand and it's pretty clear why non-dealer OEMs don't want this burden.

Legacy auto makers can pass those costs on to the dealers, but Tesla/Rivian don't want to eat it. You think Rivian stock is in the tank now, imagine what would happen if they announced this move to shareholders.

And FWIW, legacy auto companies are doing the same thing if you spec a really specific build. Not sure what you'd do if you waited 6 weeks for a car to be imported from Germany only to find it had a whistle or a whine. That exact config definitely isn't sitting on the lot so you'd either take it home or tear up the contract. Doesn't seem that different.

 

[Engi_Nerd]

The legacy auto model that you're advocating for has pretty expensive inventory holding costs, which is why many are trying to move away from it.

In the dealer-based world, there's the overhead cost of the physical space needed to store significantly more cars. They have to insure each vehicle. They have to fix anything that happens to it while it sits on a lot gathering dust. They have to wash them (sometimes repeatedly).

The average car dealership loses about $40 in profit per day per vehicle that they maintain in their inventory. Multiply that times every podunk town where you have to have a dealership, then multiply that times all of the color/configuration combos that you'd need to have on-hand and it's pretty clear why non-dealer OEMs don't want this burden.

Legacy auto makers can pass those costs on to the dealers, but Tesla/Rivian don't want to eat it. You think Rivian stock is in the tank now, imagine what would happen if they announced this move to shareholders.

And FWIW, legacy auto companies are doing the same thing if you spec a really specific build. Not sure what you'd do if you waited 6 weeks for a car to be imported from Germany only to find it had a whistle or a whine. That exact config definitely isn't sitting on the lot so you'd either take it home or tear up the contract. Doesn't seem that different.

Color me surprised that my wanting to physically test drive my actual $80K vehicle BEFORE taking ownership of it was actually just me "advocating for the legacy auto model". The two are completely unrelated, and no, other manufacturers do not make you sign for factory-ordered vehicles before driving them.

Perhaps you could also help me buy a house without an inspection?

 

[No.92]

The one thing I truly despise about purchasing a Tesla was how ridiculous it is to have to purchase such an expensive vehicle from a company with known terrible quality control without being able to drive it first. For example, many of the newer Model Ys have started exhibiting motor whine that is much louder than previous models. This is no doubt a result of Tesla relentlessly cutting costs, trying to find the absolute bottom customers will accept. The consumer has no way to screen for dynamic defects like these before signing, and just has to drive away with any squeaks, rattles, whistles, vibrations, and misalignments their copy was blessed with. This approach hugely lowers the bar for manufacturing, essentially leaving it up to the customer to wrestle with service to work out the last 5-10% of QC. At the end of the day, for us, all the anxiety they've removed by streamlining the actual purchase process was just deferred to the drive home, nervously waiting to see what it is you are actually stuck with.

I am very disappointed to see Rivian copy this model that is so hostile to the consumer. If you have faith in your product, you should let people test drive THEIR ACTUAL TRUCK before signing for it, similar to legacy auto makers. Their claimed "full refund" return period, similar to Tesla's old policy, is of no real value given that it always takes weeks to receive your first service appointment. It sounds like there are several somewhat common issues with people's trucks pulling to the right, vibrating at speed, whistling due to bad window seals, and squeaking or tocking suspension that would make a test drive incredibly informative. People should know what they are signing up for.

Hm, that's strange because my friend, who owns a Tesla, said that before he bought, he was given a Tesla to drive for a weekend. So not sure what you're talking about.

 

[yizzung]

Color me surprised that my wanting to physically test drive my actual $80K vehicle BEFORE taking ownership of it was actually just me "advocating for the legacy auto model". The two are completely unrelated, and no, other manufacturers do not make you sign for factory-ordered vehicles before driving them.

Perhaps you could also help me buy a house without an inspection?

you should let people test drive THEIR ACTUAL TRUCK before signing for it, similar to legacy auto makers

Sorry, when you were advocating for the legacy auto makers I mistakenly interpreted that as advocating for the legacy auto makers. Won't happen again... Or maybe your account got hacked. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[AxelR]

Perhaps you could also help me buy a house without an inspection?

Oops… I did that 3 months ago.
Must be a habit, I did that with my (now sold) 911, a few months ago again with my Tesla and I seem to do it every year with the new iPhone!

 

[Engi_Nerd]

Sorry, when you were advocating for the legacy auto makers I mistakenly interpreted that as advocating for the legacy auto makers. Won't happen again... Or maybe your account got hacked. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

K

Oops… I did that 3 months ago.
Must be a habit, I did that with my (now sold) 911, a few months ago again with my Tesla and I seem to do it every year with the new iPhone!

I assume a lot of folks have enough money where they don't bother worrying about such pedestrian things. I am not one of them. Not really sure what an $800 Iphone with no moving parts has to do with an $80K vehicle with air suspension and 4 traction motors, but hey, you do you.

 

[AxelR]

K



I assume a lot of folks have enough money where they don't bother worrying about such pedestrian things. I am not one of them. Not really sure what an $800 Iphone with no moving parts has to do with an $80K vehicle with air suspension and 4 traction motors, but hey, you do you.

Turns out iPhones are closer to $1500 these days ? and $800 is still a lot of money for the majority of people.
But in certain markets you have to play the game and if it’s too much for some, there’ll always be someone else to take their spot.

In principle, I agree that one should be able to test drive their vehicle before shelling out the cash but in the end nothing is perfect and that’s why they’ll fix it when they have time to get to it.

The rules of the game are changing and it’s time to adapt or unfortunately some will be left behind.

 

[atebit]

The rules of the game are changing and it’s time to adapt or unfortunately some will be left behind.

Indeed, many people have grown to accept mediocrity (or less) for business as usual. But if we’re supposed to look at this process through the cold lens of operations research (“some percentage of widgets will have defects”), does it make sense to then shift issues that could’ve and should’ve been caught higher up in the delivery process onto the Service side of the business, which will likely continue to be oversubscribed for at least the remainder of this decade? The Buyer already has little recourse after the funds leave the bank; expecting a fledgling company like Rivian to “just fix” delivery issues later in a timely matter might be wishful thinking. Your leverage pretty much ends once you’ve signed.

It has nothing to do with “the dealership model” vs the “new” model. I certainly don’t want to have to go waste time at a place that smells of cheap vinyl. The R1T is the 3d car I’ve purchased the “new” way. If a company expects me to make a high-dollar, sight-unseen purchase for a mechanically complex device, obvious defects should not exist at delivery. For the ones that slip through, there should be an expedited way to deal with them, not “get in the hopeless queue”.

At the end of the day it all comes down to Rivian (and Tesla) trying to hit their delivery targets by quarter end. Does “ship ‘em all and let Service sort them out” sound like a good-faith business practice?

 

[AxelR]

@atebit
You’re preaching to the choir. As a student I worked at a Mercedes (Daimler) factory in the summer back in Germany (great money back then). They had extremely stringent quality requirements and very strong QC. I can’t recall what ISOs they had to confirm to but the vehicles came out of there flawless. Each step of the production was QC at all times from panel stamping to assembly completion. In addition to that they also pulled parts or full cars/trucks off the line every so often to make sure that everything was still within tolerance.
Anyway, my point is I agree. But there’s a big difference in how things should be and how they are. At my level, I can’t do much than play the game or walk away when I think it’s not worth it.
In terms of Good Faith… we might have a bigger problem with the lenders than we have with car manufacturers.

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