Tow charging R1T/R1S

[Max]

Spot on. Rivian just needs to take the two topics of "jump start" and "tow charge" and go through step-by-step plain instructions with details like mph or any precautions.

I think they underestimate how much their audience (techy folks and adventurous people) need to know how things work and how much some of us need to take charge of the situation when things go wrong. Picking up the phone and calling someone else is not always an option.

It looks like neutral is not really neutral. I wish the other two wheels could be disengaged too. Then we could be towed without worrying about inverters, the transmission on the tow vehicle, getting a flatbed to an impossible off road location or tow charging at 3 mph.

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[the long way downunder]

I think they underestimate how much their audience (techy folks and adventurous people) need to know how things work and how much some of us need to take charge of the situation when things go wrong. Picking up the phone and calling someone else is not always an option.

It looks like neutral is not really neutral. I wish the other two wheels could be disengaged too. Then we could be towed without worrying about inverters, the transmission on the tow vehicle, getting a flatbed to an impossible off road location or tow charging at 3 mph.

I assume there is no "neutral" there's only freewheeling. The "eco" ("range"?) mode simply freewheels the rear motors and drives through the fronts only (presumably still using both front and rear for braking and stability, etc.
One of the advantages of a quad motor is the simplicity and strength. I assume they just have a reduction gear and a direct drive shaft from the box to stub axle. I don't see the need for a clutch.
Presumably the CV joints are protected by software to make sure the motors never spin raw torque without preload (the thing that an engine/gearbox/transfer/diff does that snaps cv joints and wears out splines, etc.)
Thinking about it, if the Rivian was "off" or "dead" so long as you can release the parking brake, you could tow it and the motors would just spin, they wouldn't regen, they wouldn't generate heat, so they wouldn't need the cooling system to be operative.
Of course the brake booster and power steering wouldn't be working …

 

[zefram47]

One thing that's occurred to me recently is that I've heard many EVs will permanently disconnect the HV battery if the air bags deploy. There have been cases off-road where trucks like the Chevy Colorado ZR2 was blowing air bags on trail for seemingly no reason. If that happened to a Rivian, you'd wind up with a very heavy turtle that couldn't move. So the question of whether or not it'll roll is important, even as I try to picture a couple of Wranglers trying to help tow it safely off a steep trail.

 

[Max]

One thing that's occurred to me recently is that I've heard many EVs will permanently disconnect the HV battery if the air bags deploy. There have been cases off-road where trucks like the Chevy Colorado ZR2 was blowing air bags on trail for seemingly no reason. If that happened to a Rivian, you'd wind up with a very heavy turtle that couldn't move. So the question of whether or not it'll roll is important, even as I try to picture a couple of Wranglers trying to help tow it safely off a steep trail.

One of the owners (in the video I posted above) had two accidents with his Tesla. At least in one the air back did not deploy but main battery disconnected. In both cases the wheels were pretty much locked and police had leave a bunch of rubber on the road trying to push it out of the way. A flat bed tow truck could not get the vehicle on. Tesla people had to come in, give it a jump because the 12 v battery died after a few hours so they could change a few settings before moving it.

I feel like in their design there is not enough thought given to what you would do when things hit the fan. Or if there is, it is not shared. If their people have the knowledge and capability to deal with it, that is the only thing that matters. That way they can name the price too. My wife’s outback had the same level of damage as this dude’s Tesla. I would say $2K vs $20K repair cost is a substantial difference.

 

[the long way downunder]

One thing that's occurred to me recently is that I've heard many EVs will permanently disconnect the HV battery if the air bags deploy. There have been cases off-road where trucks like the Chevy Colorado ZR2 was blowing air bags on trail for seemingly no reason. If that happened to a Rivian, you'd wind up with a very heavy turtle that couldn't move. So the question of whether or not it'll roll is important, even as I try to picture a couple of Wranglers trying to help tow it safely off a steep trail.

Anyone going "Baja" in an R1 is asking for trouble. Youtube has plenty of Raptor's taking pretty mild hits resulting in airbags and an expensive dealer visit.
Presumably Rivian has designed the airbags to work like a Jeep/Bronco etc. to not be triggered by hard hits while in off-road modes.
I doubt Rivian is going to put a button on the touchscreen labeled "disable airbags" … but I think they could code for an OTA "wake up" if the R1 disables itself, so an owner could call for support and say "so, what happened was …"

p.s. A couple of Jeeps with kinetic ropes or winches can move a Suburban or Excursion, so an R1 even with the rear wheels locked is going to be recoverable, but let's hope nobody has to find out.

 

[zefram47]

Anyone going "Baja" in an R1 is asking for trouble. Youtube has plenty of Raptor's taking pretty mild hits resulting in airbags and an expensive dealer visit.
Presumably Rivian has designed the airbags to work like a Jeep/Bronco etc. to not be triggered by hard hits while in off-road modes.
I doubt Rivian is going to put a button on the touchscreen labeled "disable airbags" … but I think they could code for an OTA "wake up" if the R1 disables itself, so an owner could call for support and say "so, what happened was …"

p.s. A couple of Jeeps with kinetic ropes or winches can move a Suburban or Excursion, so an R1 even with the rear wheels locked is going to be recoverable, but let's hope nobody has to find out.

I wouldn't presume anything. The ZR2 was billed as their most off-road capable Colorado trim and it had an issue for strait mild hits, not baja-ing in the least. Toyota used to put a button in their trucks that would disable to roll over airbag deployment in case you flopped over, but they've since just reprogrammed them to do it automatically, I assume if you're in 4-Low. Noted on the Excusion...similar curb weight, but again, thinking about dead weight being escorted down a mountain. I could see needing two or more vehicles on the rear attached together to manage it.

As for the "wake up", I could've sworn people were talking about some sort of pyro-based disconnect on the Teslas which would involve replacing that fuse. A software fix wouldn't be possible. But I don't know what Rivian would be using for this case.

https://insideevs.com/news/334322/tesla-patents-pyrotechnic-battery-safety-device/

 

[Max]

I wouldn't presume anything. The ZR2 was billed as their most off-road capable Colorado trim and it had an issue for strait mild hits, not baja-ing in the least. Toyota used to put a button in their trucks that would disable to roll over airbag deployment in case you flopped over, but they've since just reprogrammed them to do it automatically, I assume if you're in 4-Low. Noted on the Excusion...similar curb weight, but again, thinking about dead weight being escorted down a mountain. I could see needing two or more vehicles on the rear attached together to manage it.

As for the "wake up", I could've sworn people were talking about some sort of pyro-based disconnect on the Teslas which would involve replacing that fuse. A software fix wouldn't be possible. But I don't know what Rivian would be using for this case.

https://insideevs.com/news/334322/tesla-patents-pyrotechnic-battery-safety-device/

It is under rear seat in Y:

 

[crashmtb]

I think they underestimate how much their audience (techy folks and adventurous people) need to know how things work and how much some of us need to take charge of the situation when things go wrong.

it is much safer when writing an instruction to keep things as concise as possible. The manual was likely written by a technical writer, and maybe not even in-house at rivian.

in technical writing you can’t assume the end user will understand a bunch of extra technical detail.

 

[Max]

it is much safer when writing an instruction to keep things as concise as possible. The manual was likely written by a technical writer, and maybe not even in-house at rivian.

in technical writing you can’t assume the end user will understand a bunch of extra technical detail.

Completely agree however it is perfectly acceptable to have a simple and advance version of both manual and interface with enough flexibility that everyone can have the level of info and control they are comfortable with. I have been able to get a shop manual for any vehicle I have had in the past. Even Tesla due to excessive pressure after more than a decade has provided some of that info (for rent online). We don’t seem to have that option as of now.

 

[crashmtb]

Completely agree however it is perfectly acceptable to have a simple and advance version of both manual and interface with enough flexibility that everyone can have the level of info and control they are comfortable with. I have been able to get a shop manual for any vehicle I have had in the past. Even Tesla due to excessive pressure after more than a decade has provided some of that info (for rent online). We don’t seem to have that option as of now.

I’ll be grabbing a subscription to the service info when it’s available. I’ve also had a shop manual for every car I’ve had. Keen to know how to do things like unfuck the tonneau cover of it gets jammed, or clean the drains for the tonneau compartment etc etc.

but that stuff is usually not in owner’s manuals, and for good reason. Idiot proofing is impossible. They keep making better idiots….

 

[the long way downunder]

It is under rear seat in Y:

yep, Tesla uses a pyro – I'm not sure that all EVs are required to use the same approach (it's a flawed concept that doesn't prevent thermal runaway and first responders have instructions on how to cut the physical power.)
My thought on an OTA "wake-up" was for cases when the vehicle isn't physically disabled.
I've had a couple of Teslas and have "expected" them to make "obvious" improvements, but their focus is entirely on revenue and profit … improving the vehicle happens with the purpose of selling more and reducing costs.
The "pyro in the penthouse" is an example of "this isn't a great idea" that they've not chosen to revise. A redundant solenoid with a manual reset would be as safe and less dangerous (in the cases where the driver should have the option to continue driving after an airbag deployment) but probably cost 3x or 10x the $50 pyro device.
Tesla for example has some 10%+battery capacity which it does not make available. I'd like to be able to press a button on the touchscreen to say "ok, warranty will be compromised, but there's a forest fire and I'd like the vehicle to move now."

 

[RBR1S]

So wait? Is this saying you can't dinghy tow a Rivian at all, such as behind an RV?

 

[the long way downunder]

So wait? Is this saying you can't dinghy tow a Rivian at all, such as behind an RV?

I cut-and-paste the Rivian doc in part because (a) people would say "prove this rubbish you're posting" and (b) because it's rubbish, afaik.
I think this is just waste-of-money lawyers writing broad sweeping disclaimers of "don't use our product, it is known to cause cancer" …
We've seen "tow charging" EVs (I've seen a Tesla Model 3 tow-charged … in a few miles it had enough state-of-charge to propel itself to the next Supercharger) and we know the R1T can tow a mountain up the side of another mountain …
How can the R1T know or care what it is towing or whether what it is towing is regeneratively charging?
Sure, a disabled EV in some states of malfunction could potentially damage itself (charging its battery while its onboard systems are not operating its thermal management system or the battery cooling is itself the cause of the disabled EV refusing to proceed under its own power.)
Sure, if you somehow actually overloaded the R1T and didn't have it in tow mode and somehow found a way to tow a disabled EV in a way that overloaded the R1T perhaps there is a special condition which Rivian has not been able to code around with software to prevent the R1T from self-destructing … a pretty far-fetched contingency.
But what does that have to do with Rivian and the R1T; why would Rivian "decree" that towing is harmful?

 

[CommodoreAmiga]

I cut-and-paste the Rivian doc in part because (a) people would say "prove this rubbish you're posting" and (b) because it's rubbish, afaik.
I think this is just waste-of-money lawyers writing broad sweeping disclaimers of "don't use our product, it is known to cause cancer" …
We've seen "tow charging" EVs (I've seen a Tesla Model 3 tow-charged … in a few miles it had enough state-of-charge to propel itself to the next Supercharger) and we know the R1T can tow a mountain up the side of another mountain …
How can the R1T know or care what it is towing or whether what it is towing is regeneratively charging?
Sure, a disabled EV in some states of malfunction could potentially damage itself (charging its battery while its onboard systems are not operating its thermal management system or the battery cooling is itself the cause of the disabled EV refusing to proceed under its own power.)
Sure, if you somehow actually overloaded the R1T and didn't have it in tow mode and somehow found a way to tow a disabled EV in a way that overloaded the R1T perhaps there is a special condition which Rivian has not been able to code around with software to prevent the R1T from self-destructing … a pretty far-fetched contingency.
But what does that have to do with Rivian and the R1T; why would Rivian "decree" that towing is harmful?

They’ve said it can be done for short distances, in an emergency. They don’t want to endorse long-distance flat-towing behind RVs however. Different use cases. really.

At low state of charge, flat towing a short distance can regen some range. But its a LOT of drag on the vehicle towing it…. And if the state of charge gets too high it can be bad. I think Rivian doesn’t endorse/support towing behind an RV because of that.

 

[ResidualReality]

(27) Real World Rivian Range Test // When It Dies It Dies - YouTube

He had some trouble with this entire concept when the battery was totally dead, which is very important information to this process. If you are at 0 and nowhere near a charger... stop and get tow charged while you can, or you won't even be able to.

Also, this is a terrible real world range test when comparing vs the estimated range. They didn't use the Rivian navigation to get an actual estimate on distance, and drove through the mountains which would apply the same negatives to fuel economy with an ICE vehicle. I love he ran it down to nothing, but wouldn't put any value in the distance he got out of it.

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