GM adopts Tesla's NACS standard! Munro begs Rivian to switch

[dfx]

No, I charge my Tesla at home with a J1772 charger using a simple adapter. They could just replace them as they wear out.

For those concerned about CCS going away, Chademo vehicles can still be charged and that standard in the US has essentially been dead for more than a decade. I would not let any of this impact a purchasing decision today.

It's all good news. The more charging options for everyone the better. Adapters will be used by every EV owner. I always used one for my Tesla when needed. It's not inconvenient to simply use an adapter

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[scottf200]

NACS "North_American_Charging_Standard_Technical_Specification"
* 1000V -- There is a 1000V version.
* 900A -- Looks like they tested 900A on a the V2 non-liquid could handle but I don't see anything for the v3 liquid cooled cable (cooled connector link: 2019 Tesla patents new liquid-cooled charging connector)

P(kW) = I(A) × V(V) / 1000

https://tesla-cdn.thron.com/static/HXVNIC_North_American_Charging_Standard_Technical_Specification_TS-0023666_HFTPKZ.pdf?xseo=&response-content-disposition=inline;filename="North-American-Charging-Standard-Technical-Specification-TS-0023666.pdf

 

[SANZC02]

It is indeed not a true open standard. Just because Tesla puts colorful language around it doesn’t make it so.

Not arguing that point, would really like to understand what is actually in the Ford and GM agreements to better understand the validity of the Tesla announcement. Would also like to see another network add some NACS cables and see those agreements as well.

Tesla chargers are pretty expensive already, they will get crazy expensive if other networks do not come on board. In CA the Magic-Dock stations are 54 cents a kW, in NY they are 50, that is a pretty big premium compared to EA.

 

[JediKnight]

Since the infrastructure bill to build out a nationwide charging network hasn't really gotten off the ground yet (AFAIK). Wouldn't this be the time to go with a standard that hopefully more EV manufacturers will commit to supporting? I'm neither pro-NACS or pro-CCS. Like others, I would like to see to one standard going forward.

 

[DuoRivians]

It's the opposite of anti-competitive. I am waiting to hear from a 3rd party charger maker to adopt the NACS. That will be a true test of whether there is a shift to Tesla's connector.

I think you misunderstand. If anyone can use it without paying royalties, then it’s fine. But if royalties are involved and/or Tesla gets to decide which auto oem or DCFC provider can use the Tesla plug or supercharger, then it can be deemed anticompetitive.

Microsoft shipping windows with IE built in was considered anti-competitive

 

[MDH]

Or, if Elon decides, he can basically put Rivian out of business. Seems like a problem to me.
Going to be an interesting 12 months or so as this battle rages on. Bet EA and EVGo are gonna be pretty cautious in their investments until the dust settles here.

I think EVGo, Chargepoint and EA will want to add NACS to their chargers assuming an agreement is reached with Tesla. What choice do they have? IMO they are sucking wind and don't have the space to be cautious. Expect Stellantis and Hyundai will soon announce the same. VW....not so sure.

 

[docwhiz]

What about level 2 chargers? Many employers, public spaces, etc have spent lots of money to put in level 2 chargers that are CCS based and require an adapter for Tesla owners. Do those all need to be replaced then? Is there an equivalent NACS charger like the level 2 ChargePoint ones many companies have? ??‍ truly just curious.

side note: I also never want to give Elon a single cent of my money so… ??‍

All Level 2 chargers are J1772 (part of CCS1 standard) or Tesla NACS. Tesla provides every car with a J1772 to NACS adapter.
So all installed Level 2 chargers can stay just the way they are and everyone can use them without changing anything.

 

[jjswan33]

For those concerned about CCS going away, Chademo vehicles can still be charged and that standard in the US has essentially been dead for more than a decade. I would not let any of this impact a purchasing decision today.

It's true that you can still charge them but what about resale? Would you buy a car with Chademo today?

 

[2025R1S]

Is anyone else just realizing that at this point - you could sarcastically say that the only people pushing CCS still is ChargePoint, the US government and Electrify America for a bunch of foreign CCS vehicles?

Like, I know that ignores Rivian entirely here, but…..it does feel funny to say think that if Rivian were to just….switch, that statement would be true.

With Ford, GM and Tesla on NACS - you have the North American automobile manufacturing market. Stellantis is foreign and has an incredibly small vehicle lineup.

 

[SANZC02]

Microsoft shipping windows with IE built in was considered anti-competitive

I always thought that was a silly ruling. If they prevented other browsers from being installed I would agree but saying it was anti-competitive because people would use IE and not install other browsers in my simple mind was a huge stretch.

 

[MDH]

No really.

Tesla has said NACS is an open standard.

If Tesla denies Rivian's application to join NACS/Supercharger Network on equal footing to Ford and GM that is Tesla exercising monopolistic power to limit competition.

Tesla would lose big time in court. Not to speak of court of public opinion.

CCS in North America is now Betamax.

Tesla won't deny Rivian. The question is will Rivian want to use NACS? Cricketts from RJ so far.

 

[Bullitt]

It's the opposite of anti-competitive. I am waiting to hear from a 3rd party charger maker to adopt the NACS. That will be a true test of whether there is a shift to Tesla's connector.

This.. is exactly what Ive been looking for

 

[VSG]

Tesla can make and sell adapters. Both Ford and GM have now said they will offer adapters as their first step. If Tesla's main purpose was to drive EV adoption, as some have said above, then they would have already offered adapters to everyone, for a price. And that would make them a lot of money not only on the adapters but on the huge new user base that would then be paying them for charging.

But Tesla clearly doesn't want to JUST sell adapters - they want to ALSO lock people into their proprietary network. Making deals with other manufacturers not only gets them the adapter revenue, but also gets them the recurring, long-term licensing revenue. Mo' money for Tesla. They really don't need an agreement with either Ford or GM to sell adapters, but they are going to leverage their proprietary technology to sell Ford-specific and GM-specific adapters as a way to try to milk as much out of this as they can.

 

[Autolycus]

It's the opposite of anti-competitive. I am waiting to hear from a 3rd party charger maker to adopt the NACS. That will be a true test of whether there is a shift to Tesla's connector.

This suggests you have no understanding of what “competition” means for these purposes. As someone else said, MS Windows was completely wide open to anyone using the OS for their own web browser. “Openness” doesn’t mean fair and open competition.

 

[zefram47]

That 4.6 section makes it sound like it's possible with the protocol but not implemented yet. It sounds promising and I haven't seen a CCS implementation either... so maybe both would be available shortly...

Ford already has V2H implemented with the F-150 Lightning and folks have installed the required home infrastructure to use it with their CCS plug. Clearly Tesla has no answer for this yet.

What about level 2 chargers? Many employers, public spaces, etc have spent lots of money to put in level 2 chargers that are CCS based and require an adapter for Tesla owners. Do those all need to be replaced then? Is there an equivalent NACS charger like the level 2 ChargePoint ones many companies have? ??‍ truly just curious.

Level 2 (240V) charging is covered by J1772, not CCS. Teslas literally ship with Tesla to J1772 adapters and they're available on the cheap.

Rivian should shut down the assembly line now and change to the NACS.

Totally not as simple as throwing a different plug on a vehicle. The entire architecture of the plug to onboard AC charger to the battery has to change along with the software behind them. There's a reason why Ford and GM both announced 2025 timelines, and I'm sure part of that is for Tesla to get their network ready for them as well.

...Hyundai will soon announce the same.

Hyundai will have no interest in the Supercharger network until they start installing V4 stations which support their 800V class vehicles.

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