The Truth About Reliability

[Donald Stanfield]

Yesterday I noticed a mismatched panel gap in my R1T I hadn't noticed before. Similarly, the car was delivered with a small dent. My R1S was delivered with a missing interior door handle guard. The R1S before that had the A pillar trim pop off.

I didn't realize all of this was due to the fact that the car is an EV. I guess the battery and motor somehow magically makes all these non-EV parts defective. I hope the EV magic doesn't eventually get to my 12V battery, a technology that has existed since 1971.

No one believes anything you say. After coming up with "dA gRapH iZ bAd" type posts it's obvious you're just here to push some BS agenda. Get a hobby.

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[nc10]

Setting aside the utility, or lack thereof, of making such a post, everyone speaking to Rivian's reliability forgets one thing.

Not so at all.
- Rivian design is excellent, though too hard/expensive to repair. Owners do love using and driving the vehicle.
-Rivian reliability is just very bad. The raw data says so. That doesn't mean everyone has significant problems, but too high a percentage do.
- Reliability is worse than expected, even taking account its a new vehicle from a new company. I'm sure reliability is worse than Rivian expected to be. (I agree its really hard, I see how other new EV companies have done)
- Most buyers actually well understood its a new vehicle, new company and expected above average number of problems,
-Its too often really hard to get service, communication is poor, service waits/times are too long, too many items need to be fixed multiple times.
- Local service options for what should be routine things like alignment or A/C fixes or body work are just too few.
- Rivian has not made enough progress in the service area over the past 3 years.

I love using and driving the vehicle. But we just can't recommend as a primary vehicle to someone. You can suffer through the service/reliability and enjoy the vehicle, only if you have another good option. I hope Rivian is succesful and endures to become a producer of ultra reliable vehicles.

 

[runwithscissors]

Me too! But just one Rivian so far. But all of my early order pricing was lost and then some on that IPO. But it's been fun anyway.

Same, jelly of the guys that had 2 reservations, got the R1T first and drove it for a year or so then sold it for profit when their R1S was delivered. Some also did that along with selling their IPO at a high unlike me who was a fool and just held it.

 

[raylepper]

Not so at all.
- Rivian design is excellent, though too hard/expensive to repair. Owners do love using and driving the vehicle.
-Rivian reliability is just very bad. The raw data says so. That doesn't mean everyone has significant problems, but too high a percentage do.
- Reliability is worse than expected, even taking account its a new vehicle from a new company. I'm sure reliability is worse than Rivian expected to be. (I agree its really hard, I see how other new EV companies have done)
- Most buyers actually well understood its a new vehicle, new company and expected above average number of problems,
-Its too often really hard to get service, communication is poor, service waits/times are too long, too many items need to be fixed multiple times.
- Local service options for what should be routine things like alignment or A/C fixes or body work are just too few.
- Rivian has not made enough progress in the service area over the past 3 years.

I love using and driving the vehicle. But we just can't recommend as a primary vehicle to someone. You can suffer through the service/reliability and enjoy the vehicle, only if you have another good option. I hope Rivian is succesful and endures to become a producer of ultra reliable vehicles.

Please would you share with us the 'raw data' you mention.

 

[nc10]

Please would you share with us the 'raw data' you mention.

I don't have raw data, but assumed it was reflected accurately in reports like these. Many of us have personal experience with long waits to get service, trucks setting waiting for service, an indicator of more service problems than originally planned for.

The Consumer Reports survey data. Widely reported, based on surveys they send out to owners.

JD Power
That brings us to the performances of Rivian, Tesla, and Polestar. Rivian and Tesla both had 266 problems per 100 vehicles, which was tied for the third-worst behind Dodge (301) and Polestar (316).

 

[raylepper]

I've read all 65 posts in this thread, the key word in the title of which is 'Reliability.'

In many of these posts the word 'reliability' often seems to be conflated with build quality, fit and finish, infotainment/connectivity issues, service wait times, and even poor communication with Rivian Tech staff.

I read both the Consumer Reports report and the JD Power report. While neither offers much detail about the frequency of the specific 'problems' reported, they both include in their results issues that I would not characterize as 'reliability' issues. For instance, in the CR report :

"We study 20 trouble areas. This ranges from nuisances—squeaky brakes and broken interior trim—to major bummers, such as potentially expensive problems involving out-of-warranty engines, transmissions, EV batteries, and EV charging."​

And the JD Power report :

"The study is based on a battery of 227 VOC questions plus relevant repair data, all of which is organized into 10 vehicle categories: infotainment; features, controls and displays; exterior; driving assistance; interior; powertrain; seats; driving experience; climate; and unspecified (unique to repair)."​

It is not pedantic to point out that if we want to discuss Rivian 'reliability' we ought to agree on what the word means. Here are five definitions of 'reliable' (I know, too cute, but I had to) sources:

Merriam-Webster: Reliability is "the quality or state of being reliable," or "the extent to which an experiment, test, or measuring procedure yields the same results on repeated trials." ​

​

Cambridge Dictionary: Reliability is "the quality of being able to be trusted or believed because of working or behaving well." ​

​

American Society for Quality (ASQ): Reliability is "the probability that a product, system, or service will perform its intended function adequately for a specified period of time, or will operate in a defined environment without failure." ​

​

Oxford English Dictionary: Reliability is "the quality of being trustworthy or of performing consistently well." ​

​

The Free Dictionary: Reliability is "the quality of being dependable or reliable."​

So, I have no idea how reliable Rivian vehicles are. And other than Rivian management, I'm thinking nobody else does either. But here's what I do know:

People on this forum have reported failures that made their Rivian vehicle undrivable. For those folks the failure rate is 100%. I'd be pissed and my confidence in the vehicle would be shaken. I'd want to know the reason for the failure and the likelihood of it happening again.

I've had my vehicle for a year. It has performed without issue 100% of the time. But the reports on this forum of issues that made vehicles undrivable get my attention. They're a cause for concern.

What bothers me, and why I took so much time to write this, is blanket statements like "Rivian reliability is just very bad" or "Rivian reliability is worse than expected" or ones that presume to know the causes for long service wait times.

I get the frustration. It's totally understandable. But I think there's value in separating feelings from facts.

 

[Donald Stanfield]

I've read all 65 posts in this thread, the key word in the title of which is 'Reliability.'

In many of these posts the word 'reliability' often seems to be conflated with build quality, fit and finish, infotainment/connectivity issues, service wait times, and even poor communication with Rivian Tech staff.

I read both the Consumer Reports report and the JD Power report. While neither offers much detail about the frequency of the specific 'problems' reported, they both include in their results issues that I would not characterize as 'reliability' issues. For instance, in the CR report :

"We study 20 trouble areas. This ranges from nuisances—squeaky brakes and broken interior trim—to major bummers, such as potentially expensive problems involving out-of-warranty engines, transmissions, EV batteries, and EV charging."​

And the JD Power report :

"The study is based on a battery of 227 VOC questions plus relevant repair data, all of which is organized into 10 vehicle categories: infotainment; features, controls and displays; exterior; driving assistance; interior; powertrain; seats; driving experience; climate; and unspecified (unique to repair)."​

It is not pedantic to point out that if we want to discuss Rivian 'reliability' we ought to agree on what the word means. Here are five definitions of 'reliable' (I know, too cute, but I had to) sources:

Merriam-Webster: Reliability is "the quality or state of being reliable," or "the extent to which an experiment, test, or measuring procedure yields the same results on repeated trials." ​

​

Cambridge Dictionary: Reliability is "the quality of being able to be trusted or believed because of working or behaving well." ​

​

American Society for Quality (ASQ): Reliability is "the probability that a product, system, or service will perform its intended function adequately for a specified period of time, or will operate in a defined environment without failure." ​

​

Oxford English Dictionary: Reliability is "the quality of being trustworthy or of performing consistently well." ​

​

The Free Dictionary: Reliability is "the quality of being dependable or reliable."​

So, I have no idea how reliable Rivian vehicles are. And other than Rivian management, I'm thinking nobody else does either. But here's what I do know:

People on this forum have reported failures that made their Rivian vehicle undrivable. For those folks the failure rate is 100%. I'd be pissed and my confidence in the vehicle would be shaken. I'd want to know the reason for the failure and the likelihood of it happening again.

I've had my vehicle for a year. It has performed without issue 100% of the time. But the reports on this forum of issues that made vehicles undrivable get my attention. They're a cause for concern.

What bothers me, and why I took so much time to write this, is blanket statements like "Rivian reliability is just very bad" or "Rivian reliability is worse than expected" or ones that presume to know the causes for long service wait times.

I get the frustration. It's totally understandable. But I think there's value in separating feelings from facts.

Well said. My personal definition of reliable is “ Will this vehicle take me where I need to go and get me back without stranding me”. For my definition both my Rivian’s have been 100% reliable and it wasn’t even questionable at any time in my ownership journey.

I don’t see any value in discussing reliability and panel gaps or suspension noise in the same sentence. Those who do don’t really understand what reliable means, including the CR article, or they have an agenda.

 

[nc10]

What bothers me, and why I took so much time to write this, is blanket statements like "Rivian reliability is just very bad" or "Rivian reliability is worse than expected" or ones that presume to know the causes for long service wait times.

Consumer Reports and JD Power are meaningful sources of reliability data, from which one can reasonably conclude Rivian reliability is bad. Not unexpected for a new vehicle. Rivian has not denied (pls correct as needed, I could have missed). I expect there are many causes for long service wait times. But to fail to recognize that the number of needed repairs is a significant factor is untenable.

Its appropriate to track all kinds a reliability problems, from cosmetic to vehicle failures. CR breaks the data down by system, with battery problems, charging problems, electrical accessories and build quality being the worst areas for '22 R1T's. (My fast charging problems which took more than a year and multible attempts/SC visits to fix are part of that data. )

With most kinds of problems, controlling the small problems is a good indicator that big problems will be less. I can't prove it is true in car manufacturing, but have seen it many times elsewhere, and would not ignore that data myself. No guarantees, not the only data to consider, but a good way to improve odds.

I don't have regrets about my purchase. I can recommend it as an excellent high performance, highly capable, highly fun vehicle for those with more than one vehicle/transportation option. I would not recommend one for somebody that relies daily on their only vehicle, because of slow problematic service/limited service options, and reliability concerns.

 

[Donald Stanfield]

Consumer Reports and JD Power are meaningful sources of reliability data, from which one can reasonably conclude Rivian reliability is bad. Not unexpected for a new vehicle. Rivian has not denied (pls correct as needed, I could have missed). I expect there are many causes for long service wait times. But to fail to recognize that the number of needed repairs is a significant factor is untenable.

Its appropriate to track all kinds a reliability problems, from cosmetic to vehicle failures. CR breaks the data down by system, with battery problems, charging problems, electrical accessories and build quality being the worst areas for '22 R1T's. (My fast charging problems which took more than a year and multible attempts/SC visits to fix are part of that data. )

With most kinds of problems, controlling the small problems is a good indicator that big problems will be less. I can't prove it is true in car manufacturing, but have seen it many times elsewhere, and would not ignore that data myself. No guarantees, not the only data to consider, but a good way to improve odds.

I don't have regrets about my purchase. I can recommend it as an excellent high performance, highly capable, highly fun vehicle for those with more than one vehicle/transportation option. I would not recommend one for somebody that relies daily on their only vehicle, because of slow problematic service/limited service options, and reliability concerns.

It’s not appropriate to discuss problems that are inconvenient in the same category as problems that are vehicle breaking. Saying one leads to the other, as you did in your post, just proves that big and small problems are two separate things. As such lumping them both in under the reliability umbrella is not correct.

Reliable means something specific, and in the context of a vehicle, means works as a mode of transportation. The vehicle is still reliable if one power seat doesn’t go back automatically or a piece of trim is loose. Pretending otherwise ignores reality.

 

[Brian A]

Nothing that has broken on my R1T since delivery wasn't also present on my i3, X, or iX and none of the QC problems at delivery would have passed any other manufacturer. Well, maybe Tesla would have let them slide but that's a really low bar. Maybe there are edge cases where your theory holds but a simpler explanation is that Rivian is new at making cars and just aren't very good at it yet. Sure, the more complicated the vehicle is, the more things there are to break. I'm not disagreeing with you there. But EVs have fewer parts than ICE vehicles and EVs aren't exactly new. My i3 is from 2014 and has had less problems over its life than my Rivian had within a month of ownership. I'm just one data point but my experience isn't unique. Rivians aren't Ferraris, they're fancy EV Jeeps and that's the comparison we should be making. Surely it's not too much to expect a Rivian to be as reliable as a Stellantis vehicle and as easy to get serviced.

The "truth" about Rivian reliability is that they aren't. It's not because they're inherently complicated. It's because they're made by a new manufacturer who isn't great at making reliable vehicles. I would expect a new R1 to be more reliable than one of the first off the line. If they aren't, were going to get stuck in a vicious cycle of expensive and frequent post warranty repairs crushing resale values which will then make new leases really expensive which will ultimately depress sales leading to you know what.

I sure hope the R2 has less growing pains than the R1 but it probably won't. Early Model 3s were awful. Unless a miracle happens, things will get worse for service availability when the R2 launches before or if they get better. I preordered one for my wife but there's no way she'd put up with the problems I've had with my R1. I'll probably hold off a year or two to see how things settle out. It will be interesting to see if the reliability ratings go up over the next year and a half as more people have recent R1s. That should be a pretty good indicator as to how things are going to go with the R2 and if we're going to be stuck in a Land Rover situation with lovely vehicles that you'd be crazy to own out of the warranty period.

Be sure to look at sources other than Consumer Reports for reliability ratings. Consumer Reports is biased and their ratings rely on customer surveys which is a small percentage of the whole group. Consumer Reports has been pay to play for years.

 

[sacramentoelectric]

Be sure to look at sources other than Consumer Reports for reliability ratings. Consumer Reports is biased and their ratings rely on customer surveys which is a small percentage of the whole group. Consumer Reports has been pay to play for years.

Sure, we could look at the JD Power survey that came to the same conclusion or the hundreds of pages of comments on this forum about Rivian problems. Or, and call me crazy, it's just possible they're right. Do I still like my truck? Yeah! Is it the least reliable vehicle I've ever owned? You bet! Would I buy it again? Probably not at the current pricing but man was it was a smokin' deal at early preorder pricing.

What would satisfy you? It's a bold claim saying their rankings are for sale. What's your evidence? Of course surveys are a small percentage of the whole group. You don't have to survey every owner. That's how sampling works. I have no idea how trustworthy Consumer Reports are but I don't see why this is so hard to believe or why anyone is taking the very odd stance that as long as the vehicle drives, it's somehow reliable? When I couldn't open my driver's door, the vehicle still drove. If someone thinks that shouldn't count against the vehicle's reliability rating, I guess I don't know what to say. It hasn't left me stranded but it stopped charging, the charge door wouldn't open, Driver+ module failed, the door release broke, it was dented at delivery, the mirror came apart, rattles, etc. , etc.

Earlier this year, I stopped recommending Rivian to friends here because of my experience with service issues and how long service takes to schedule. I'm lucky enough to have other cars so it's not such a big deal to have it in the shop but for people who rely on their car, it's hard for me to stand behind the brand. However, the local West Sacramento service center here has really stepped up their game, improved wait times, and more things have been fixable by mobile service. At least for me they have. I always share that with friends now when they ask if I like my truck. We've got to give them credit when they improve.

If your Rivian has been more reliable than mine, that's awesome. I hope it stays that way. I would love it if that was everyone's experience.

 

[Alanparkcity]

A few things to add:

• We don't really know how CR collects the data, what exact questions they ask, who responded, how they validate their data, and statistical significance.
• Being on this forum, we all know those that have problems are the ones that tend to post. Those that don't, don't.
• Despite having CR's lowest predicted reliability, it still got the highest customer satisfaction score and the only manufacturer to get 5/5. What does that tell us? Even despite issues, its not enough to dissatisfy the ownership experience.

Since many (most?) Rivian issues relate to software issues, I am assuming that CR also includes these. Many of these issues are solved with updates and require nothing (but patience) from the owner. If they are only counting mechanical/electrical issues I assume the number would be much smaller.

 

[Donald Stanfield]

Sure, we could look at the JD Power survey that came to the same conclusion or the hundreds of pages of comments on this forum about Rivian problems. Or, and call me crazy, it's just possible they're right. Do I still like my truck? Yeah! Is it the least reliable vehicle I've ever owned? You bet! Would I buy it again? Probably not at the current pricing but man was it was a smokin' deal at early preorder pricing.

What would satisfy you? It's a bold claim saying their rankings are for sale. What's your evidence? Of course surveys are a small percentage of the whole group. You don't have to survey every owner. That's how sampling works. I have no idea how trustworthy Consumer Reports are but I don't see why this is so hard to believe or why anyone is taking the very odd stance that as long as the vehicle drives, it's somehow reliable? When I couldn't open my driver's door, the vehicle still drove. If someone thinks that shouldn't count against the vehicle's reliability rating, I guess I don't know what to say. It hasn't left me stranded but it stopped charging, the charge door wouldn't open, Driver+ module failed, the door release broke, it was dented at delivery, the mirror came apart, rattles, etc. , etc.

Earlier this year, I stopped recommending Rivian to friends here because of my experience with service issues and how long service takes to schedule. I'm lucky enough to have other cars so it's not such a big deal to have it in the shop but for people who rely on their car, it's hard for me to stand behind the brand. However, the local West Sacramento service center here has really stepped up their game, improved wait times, and more things have been fixable by mobile service. At least for me they have. I always share that with friends now when they ask if I like my truck. We've got to give them credit when they improve.

If your Rivian has been more reliable than mine, that's awesome. I hope it stays that way. I would love it if that was everyone's experience.

Some of those issues on your list are NOT reliability concerns. For example, how does the fact that someone dented your car impact the reliability? I could dent any car made.

 

[sacramentoelectric]

Some of those issues on your list are NOT reliability concerns. For example, how does the fact that someone dented your car impact the reliability? I could dent any car made.

Um, ok. Let’s take dented during manufacturing (creased door sill caused by the seat install ) off the lousy reliability list and add it to the poor qc list. You got me there. Are the rest ok with you or do you think more of my experiences don’t count? Not sure what point you’re trying to make. That Rivians aren’t unreliable, they’re just poorly made? Weird hill to take a stand on but I guess you can call the problem whatever you want.

 

[Donald Stanfield]

Um, ok. Let’s take dented during manufacturing (creased door sill caused by the seat install ) off the lousy reliability list and add it to the poor qc list. You got me there. Are the rest ok with you or do you think more of my experiences don’t count? Not sure what point you’re trying to make. That Rivians aren’t unreliable, they’re just poorly made? Weird hill to take a stand on but I guess you can call the problem whatever you want.

If you’re going to complain at least be accurate about it.

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