🚨 Rivian Adopts Tesla NACS Standard! (Adapters in 2024, Standard Charging Port in 2025)

[MP3Mike]

So, hidden in this is the fact Tesla had to change the connector depth and increase the contact area to support 1000v And 900A.

Not hidden, in plain site, at least for anyone that bothered to read it.

Yes, for 1000v they decided to make the connector longer. But I don't know that that was necessary for 900A. (Their 900A comment doesn't specify if it was at 500v or 1000v.)

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[Ralph]

When you're the Walmart of selling electricity, especially connected to a product you also sell, sure you'll make money. Rivian isn't close to that.

Speaking of Walmart....It will be interesting to see which direction they go; NACS or CCS1? Tesla won't the be Walmart of charging for long. Today it seems likely NACS given the announcemnts by Ford and GM.

As far as I know they are the only company that has announced they will be adding chargers to thousands of locations by 2030. They currently have a store or "club" within 10 miles of 90% of the U.S. population.

There is plenty about the company and/or the experience of charging at a big box store to be less than thrilled about. But if they carry out their announced plan, they will both increase charging opportunities and put price pressure on other providers.

And they have a couple of distinct advantages in the build out of such a network: a) they already own the real estate; b) they likely have enough power to most of their locations.

 

[Ralph]

I read somewhere that they're cheap compared to other charging systems.



After owning a leaf for 12 years I've only recommended Tesla for this reason. Rivian is the first company to offer something amazing despite having ccs. Now that they can use NACS I can recommend non Tesla cars.

Yes

I believe I saw that on the @OutofSpecKyle Youtube where he made his recommendation to all manufacturer's to adopt NACS as fast as possible. I believe he also said that they were not nearly as robust, but that Tesla had taken a proactive approach and put the cables on a 2 year replacement plan. He probably has, or believes he has some inside knowledge to that.

 

[jollyroger]

I didn’t read all the posts, but I’m not convinced this is going to go as smoothly as everyone hopes.

Tesla superchargers work great with Teslas. I have one and appreciate its simplicity. But it remains to be seen if we don’t see similar issues with NACS as we do with CCS when you are trying to charge n+1 different manufacturers.

I doubt Tesla is going to be testing its chargers with a large swath of other manufacturers. To ensure that each have a similar experience as to a Tesla.

I for one will be ready for Tesla to point the finger at my Rivian when I can’t get it working. Surely it can’t be a Tesla problem charging on a Tesla Supercharger!

At the end of the day, Tesla will only really care that charging works well on Tesla’s

 

[scottf200]

I for one will be ready for Tesla to point the finger at my Rivian when I can’t get it working. Surely it can’t be a Tesla problem charging on a Tesla Supercharger!

Wait haven't there been various Rivians charging on Magic docks (Tesla Supercharges) and it working OK? So already being tested.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=rivian+magic+dock

One random example from above (similar to what I get on my Tesla Model X that I've done 80K+ road tripping in):

 

[emoore]

Wait haven't there been various Rivians charging on Magic docks (Tesla Supercharges) and it working OK? So already being tested.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=rivian+magic+dock

One random example from above (similar to what I get on my Tesla Model X that I've done 80K+ road tripping in):

No one is saying Rivian isn’t going to work with the Tesla chargers. Just if there is an issue and there is bound to be some then it can become the blame game.

 

[scottf200]

No one is saying Rivian isn’t going to work with the Tesla chargers. Just if there is an issue and there is bound to be some then it can become the blame game.

So the exact same as today with the various charging stations but those ones don't have dedicated maintenance (or enough) since so many report of them being broken. As well as them being on a scattering of hardware and software. See how these things are not the same. I was pointing out they already are testing and have shown it to work on the first try.

Tesla has dedicated teams for resolving problems and an avg of 12+ ports/stalls PER site. Way different.

Nice monitor screen Tesla showed in a video:

 

[MP3Mike]

But it remains to be seen if we don’t see similar issues with NACS as we do with CCS when you are trying to charge n+1 different manufacturers.

Tesla has had an open network of CCS chargers for years in Europe, working with vehicles from all different manufacturers. There are some vehicles that aren't there; Rivians, F-150 Lightnings, Hummers, Lucid Airs, etc. but they have been seen using the MagicDocks already.

The only issues I've heard of have both been with Hyundia/Kia vehicles. When they first opened the network Kona's, and the like, not being able to start a charge, but they worked with Hyundai and resolved that issue. And now again charging problems with newer 800v Hyundai's and Kia's, where again they had problems at first, but they have already put an interim fix in, limiting them to ~50kW, while they work with Hyundai to resolve the issue. (Which I suspect will require an update on both sides, which will be a problem for Hyundai since they can't do OTA updates for those kinds of changes. The saving grace might be that Hyundai is recently under a NHTSA investigation for a defect in their ICCU (Integrated Control Charing Unit), maybe it is related? If so, and they can get the software fixed in time maybe they can fix both issues with a single dealer visit.)

But this isn't about opening the North American Supercharger network to everyone. Just partners. Do you really think that Ford, Rivian, and GM aren't going to test all of their vehicles before shipping the adapters to make sure that they work?

 

[Zorg]

Isn't Hyundai charging speed limited by the onboard ability to step up the voltage?

 

[Luckycharms783]

Isn't Hyundai charging speed limited by the onboard ability to step up the voltage?

Yes and no. They are limited to sub maximal speeds because they use 800V architecture. But they have a trick where they use the rear motor as an inverter when charging from a 400V charger, hypothetically giving them a maximum charging speed of 150kW at a magic dock station.

That wasn't working so for now they've been limited to 50kW until they get it sorted. No one in the public knows the details of the issue. Is it Tesla or Hyundia/Kia? Hardware or software?

 

[azbill]

doubt Tesla is going to be testing its chargers with a large swath of other manufacturers. To ensure that each have a similar experience as to a Tesla.

This is likely part of the agreement with other manufacturers, but EA also does this and there are still reliability issues.

I have Plug & Charge on my Mach E for EA stations and it works almost perfectly, every time. In the 2 years I have had that car, I only had one charger that failed to initiate, I moved to another and it worked. In fact, in the last 2 years, with 3 different EVs on road trips, I have only had one case where an EA charger was limiting it's output to 40kw. So my personal experience with EA has been very good.

Edit: I will add that I set up Autocharge+ on EVGO for my Bolt (no longer own it) and my Mach E, and have never had a charger failure on that network either. I do not understand why Rivian does not support setting up P&C on EA or the Autocharge+ on EVGO. Makes charging easier and I believe it makes it more reliable as well.

 

[MP3Mike]

I wonder what all is in the NACS partner agreements. Here are some things that I think are in it, or should be, based on what we have seen:

• Tesla to provide OEM adapters/charging hardware at cost.
• OEM to test all of their existing EV models on Tesla Superchargers to verify compatibility prior to initial launch of opening the Superchargers.
  • Any necessary updates to be provided to existing EV owners free of charge regardless of warranty status.
• OEM to provide NACS to CCS1 adapter to existing OEM EV owners in early 2024.
• OEM to put/require NACS connector on all DC fast chargers they install/fund starting in early 2024.
• OEM to open their charging network to all NACS partners in early 2024.
• OEM to start putting NACS ports on new vehicles in 2025.
• OEM to ensure all of their future EVs are compatible with the Tesla Supercharger network.
• OEM to put NACS charge port on their vehicles in the rear left.
  • Front Right won't work at Tesla stalls that have a trailer friendly pull-through design.
    • Note: Rear left won't work for current RAN stalls that are trailer friendly.
• OEM to integrate charge starting/billing into their vehicle/app for Plug&Charge like usage.
• OEM to integrate compatible Superchargers into their in-vehicle, and app, based Navigation systems.
  • This includes the vehicle/app reporting to Tesla servers when a vehicle is enroute to a Supercharger.
  • OEM navigation system(s) to take suggestions/hints from Tesla servers to alternate sites to help maintain reasonable usage/costs/wait times.
• OEM to support Tesla's submission to make NACS an official standard.

Can anyone think of anything else that should be in the agreement?

 

[zymolysis]

It depends on usage. Taken to the extreme, let's say there is only a single charge in a month, peaking at ~220kW for a total of 80kWh. That could cost them ~$6,600 for the demand charges and ~$4 for the energy charges. Obviously, they can't charge a single person $6,604 for a charge. (Demand charges vary by region/utility but are often between $20 and $50 per kW, I figured at $30/kW.)

Say you wanted to get it down to $1/kWh you would need to get ~85 charges per month, or three per day. But if you have two of those charges overlap, your demand charges double to $13,200, so then you need ~6 sessions per day to keep it at $1/kWh. But that increases the chances of having three simultaneous charging sessions, increasing demand charges to $18,000. (Assuming a maximum station capacity of 600kW.) So, you would need ~8 charging sessions per day.

Do you think there is enough demand for at those sites to get ~250 charging sessions per month? Even when charging $1/kWh?

Edit: I found one rate structure for a random place in Utah:

So, demand charges are only about $20/kW. (Facility + Power). So maybe it would work at ~175 charging session per month.



Tesla does vary their rates per station, and even time of use. (Electrify America on the other hand charges a single rate country wide.)

" Say you wanted to get it down to $1/kWh you would need to get ~85 charges per month, or three per day. But if you have two of those charges overlap, your demand charges double to $13,200, so then you need ~6 sessions per day to keep it at $1/kWh."

In a low use place, such as the one in your hypothesis, there are some partial solutions:
1) Only have one charger, so there can't be two simultaneous (overlapping) charges.
2) Or share, so that two chargers will have reduced capability when there are two simultaneous charge sessions.
3) Or have a 50 kW charger instead of a 150 kW (or 250 or whatever) charger. Users in remote places just need to be able to charge enough to get back to "civilization."
4) Or have some amount of installed battery to help moderate the demand peaks (and then utilize "charge rate limited by charger" whenever the energy in the battery is insufficient).
5) Install Photo Voltaic panels, along with batteries, to limit the draw from the grid. Limit the charge rate to a much lower value whenever the PV-produced energy has been depleted.

 

[MP3Mike]

In a low use place, such as the one in your hypothesis, there are some partial solutions:
1) Only have one charger, so there can't be two simultaneous (overlapping) charges.
2) Or share, so that two chargers will have reduced capability when there are two simultaneous charge sessions.
3) Or have a 50 kW charger instead of a 150 kW (or 250 or whatever) charger. Users in remote places just need to be able to charge enough to get back to "civilization."
4) Or have some amount of installed battery to help moderate the demand peaks (and then utilize "charge rate limited by charger" whenever the energy in the battery is insufficient).
5) Install Photo Voltaic panels, along with batteries, to limit the draw from the grid. Limit the charge rate to a much lower value whenever the PV-produced energy has been depleted.

Sure, those are some options. The first three go against what Rivian says the RAN will be, and the second two aren't inexpensive either. (Though at least they would be a mostly one-time expense.) Though PV really isn't going to add much unless you install a lot of it.

 

[Zardoz]

Slightly off topic, but can anyone tell me what the heck a "DS Office Charging Station" is? Thanks for any help forthcoming in advance.

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