Experience shopping for an EV9 vs R1S - Update

[Ric G]

The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. ?

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[Going360]

To the $1000 deposit not being refundable... I put down a $1k deposit about a week and a half ago. During the test drive the sales guy told me that Rivian says the deposit is non-refundable but that they will refund it even after the order is placed but not after the contract is signed. He said that they had been authorised to tell customers that. I asked another time when we handed him the card for the deposit and he confirmed that it is refundable. Maybe I misunderstood something but he was very clear both times so I don't think so.

 

[Arbitrator]

This situation won't apply to everyone, but I want to highlight one of the big challenges Rivian faces versus the competition with their current sales model.

We are looking to trade-in our Mercedes SUV and have narrowed down our search to the Kia EV9 or the Rivian R1S. On paper, an entry level R1S looks to be similar in price to the EV9, but the reality is a much different story.

Here are some of the details so far:

Kia EV9 GT-line
Price $77,395 (fully loaded)

Rivian R1S Ideal Spec (dual motor, standard+ pack, Limestone, 22" wheels, Ocean Coast)
Price: $85,250

Difference = $7,855

At first the difference in price isn't huge, and I would 100% buy the R1S over the EV9 for an $8k difference. However the gap gets a lot bigger quickly. Here is what the numbers look like when I factor in sales tax, tax credit, trade-in value, and discounts. The are approximate numbers.

Kia EV9
OEM Discount: $3750
Trade-in: $75,000
Sales Tax (9.03%): MSPR $77,395 - Discount $3750 - Trade-in $75,000 = $0 sales tax
Colorado Tax Credit (applies to $80k MSRP or less): $5000
Final EV9 Price: $68,645

Rivian R1S
OEM Discount: $0
Trade-in (through Rivian): Unknown from Rivian, must place $1000 deposit to get trade-in quote
Trade-in third party (Best so far is Carvana): $72,000
Sales Tax (9.03): MSRP $85,250 - Discount $0 - Trade-in (assuming third party trade-in) $0 = $7698
Colorado Tax Credit: $0
Final R1S Price: $95,948 (assumes trading in vehicle to Carvana with no sales tax credit, and $3000 less for trade-in)

Difference: $27,303

A couple of considerations. I don't know what the trade-in offer will be from Rivian, and that could have a big impact especially on the sales tax credit. They really need a way to get a trade-in quote without paying $1000 deposit. Unless I'm willing to take a risk on the $1000, I have to assume I will get a low ball offer from Rivian and will need to sell the car third party.

I could remove several options from the R1S to get the MSRP under $80k which would give me the $5000 Colorado tax credit. In that situation the final difference drops to $16,306.

Rivian does offer lease rates that are very competitive compared to Kia's lease rates, so that is still an option and will likely be our path if we go with the R1S. If I lease I get access to the $7500 federal tax credit (from both Rivian or Kia) but then I lose the sales tax credit. So if I buy out the lease I need to pay 9.03% sales tax on the buyout price.

The direct to consumer model has a lot of advantages, and so does standard pricing versus negotiating with a dealership. But having the ability to get trade-in quotes, and some small room for negotiation has a lot of benefits as well. I really want the R1S but my wife likes both the cars for different reasons. It's going to be a tough sell at the moment to justify the difference in price.

I did the same analysis as you. I went to a Kia dealer on Sunday and drove the EV9 and it does not compare on any level with the Rivian R1S, which is superior in every respect. I asked for a quote to lease an EV9, costing approximately $76,000 and with $9,000 down, 36 month lease and 10k miles a year, the monthly payment is $1,052. In contrast an approximately $100,000 R1S with $9,000 down, 36 month term and 30,000 total miles, the monthly lease payment is approximately $900. IMO the R1S is a superior choice on all levels.

 

[oskeei]

I am actively being courted by Ford to buy a Lightning and am in limbo with the Rivian process. I could pick up a Lightning today for $20k less than the R1T (okay, $19k with the non-refundable deposit I already put down on the R1T). Sure, it can be argued that the R1T is a better vehicle, and I despise dealerships. But... Every hour I don't hear back from R puts me that much closer to F.

As the owner of a full-size truck like the Lightning, it's a royal PIA when it comes to parking or whenever I have to drive around in the city and squeeze around.

We purchased her to haul a toy hauler that we sold off and outside of a landscape material run 2-3 times a year, we really don't need the full-size thing and something smaller now would be more practical.

 

[SpaceEVDriver]

As the owner of a full-size truck like the Lightning, it's a royal PIA when it comes to parking or whenever I have to drive around in the city and squeeze around.

We purchased her to haul a toy hauler that we sold off and outside of a landscape material run 2-3 times a year, we really don't need the full-size thing and something smaller now would be more practical.

This is one of the strongest reasons we're still hoping Rivian convinces us to stay with them. We traded a Tacoma for a Tundra and regretted it. It was unwieldy and we ended up with a Tacoma again for various reasons, not least of which was size.

 

[Christo]

I can get the $7500 credit on the lease of the R1S or the EV9. If I lease, then I don't get the sales tax credit, because on a lease you pay sales tax on each lease payment, not the full price of the vehicle. So if my long term goal is to buy the car, I would then have to pay sales tax on the lease buyout price, which basically kills the $7500 credit. Regardless, leasing doesn't improve the situation versus the EV9 because I get the same credits.

At this point I have no idea what Rivian will offer in terms of a trade-in value if I purchase the R1S. The third party trade-ins (using Carvana and a few other online sites) have been between $66k - $72k. So without knowing what Rivian will offer, I have to assume the worst case for the moment.

I agree with the process difficulty but I would say if you worried about the cost then you probably shouldn’t be buying either vehicles.

 

[Spaceball1]

I mostly agree.
However, I'm in the mindset of going all electric, and there are two options for me to accomplish that: Lightning or R1T.

IMO, there aren't any other BEV pickups that are even worth considering. I was hoping the Fisker Atlas would be promising, but I'm spooked away from Fisker by its Ocean failures.

The $20k is huge to me too. And while I talked myself into ordering an R1T, I could get a Lightning tomorrow and in 3-5 years get the purpose-built Ford e-truck. It almost seems like doing both could be done for less than the cost of the R1T.

And while Rivian's process isn't as miserable as fighting with a dealer, it's not inviting and it's not making the decision to buy the R1T any easier. And it's certainly not worth $20k.

If you’re good with a full size truck, I’d go with the Lightning especially at that price difference. Me personally, my wife tried driving a full size rental (Ram) we had for a while and hated it; had to take it back. They are very nice to have the extra cargo and passenger space, but for us everyday driving would suck, so the Rivian is the better truck for me.

Love the new Ram EV and Ramcharger even, but again just can’t do the full size trucks (and I don’t need it).

No, literally "nobody needs' is correct. You seem to not understand the difference between wants and needs. But that's okay, that's the beauty of having a choice. And it's one of the reasons why I drive what I drive today. And will continue to drive whatever I want to drive in the future. I vote with my purchases, just like everyone else.

The point of this thread is that there will be people who purchase the Kia over the Rivian for several different reasons. And that's fine, again...it comes to choice.

I think we can all agree, we are living in great times when you can buy a truck or SUV that can do 0-60 in 3 seconds, or for the same vehicle opt for a slower but more efficient version. There’s a model for everyone’s preferences. One of the beauties of EVs (and some ICE have these options too).

I did the same analysis as you. I went to a Kia dealer on Sunday and drove the EV9 and it does not compare on any level with the Rivian R1S, which is superior in every respect. I asked for a quote to lease an EV9, costing approximately $76,000 and with $9,000 down, 36 month lease and 10k miles a year, the monthly payment is $1,052. In contrast an approximately $100,000 R1S with $9,000 down, 36 month term and 30,000 total miles, the monthly lease payment is approximately $900. IMO the R1S is a superior choice on all levels.

Curious what aspects did you find they did not compare? I have a hard time with this these days. Used to be “luxury” cars would blow away mainstream with features and content, but not so much nowadays. I can get the same features and sometimes more with a Kia as I can a Mercedes. We narrowed down my wife’s car last year to a EQB and EV6. I didn’t find much at all superior in the EQB other than the three pointed star ? To be fair, I’ve only sat in an EV9 for some time while waiting on dealership BS when we bought our EV6 last year. I have driven an R1S and own R1T and I do like them both a lot. I didn’t see a ton of negatives on the EV9.

Small frunk, no air suspension, slower 0-60 specs (compared to a quad motor anyway), but better charging specs, massaging seats, cooled 2nd row, captain chairs, and Apple CarPlay. Personally like the interior style and layout of the Rivian better but I didn’t hate the EV9 either. That’s pretty subjective though. Same with exterior style; I like them both.

 

[Beaker23]

If I somehow upgraded my wife from a Benz to a Kia, even if that’s what she wanted, it would be one helluva divorce.

Ok - This had me rolling. As the wife waiting for an R1S (configured and waiting for delivery date), if my husband dared suggest a KIA! OMG We would have words.

 

[HaveBlue]

The loosey math made my head spin but if I was close to the $80k tax deduction, I'd forgo the 22s or something to bring the price down and buy a set later.

 

[Arbitrator]

If you’re good with a full size truck, I’d go with the Lightning especially at that price difference. Me personally, my wife tried driving a full size rental (Ram) we had for a while and hated it; had to take it back. They are very nice to have the extra cargo and passenger space, but for us everyday driving would suck, so the Rivian is the better truck for me.

Love the new Ram EV and Ramcharger even, but again just can’t do the full size trucks (and I don’t need it).



I think we can all agree, we are living in great times when you can buy a truck or SUV that can do 0-60 in 3 seconds, or for the same vehicle opt for a slower but more efficient version. There’s a model for everyone’s preferences. One of the beauties of EVs (and some ICE have these options too).



Curious what aspects did you find they did not compare? I have a hard time with this these days. Used to be “luxury” cars would blow away mainstream with features and content, but not so much nowadays. I can get the same features and sometimes more with a Kia as I can a Mercedes. We narrowed down my wife’s car last year to a EQB and EV6. I didn’t find much at all superior in the EQB other than the three pointed star ? To be fair, I’ve only sat in an EV9 for some time while waiting on dealership BS when we bought our EV6 last year. I have driven an R1S and own R1T and I do like them both a lot. I didn’t see a ton of negatives on the EV9.

Small frunk, no air suspension, slower 0-60 specs (compared to a quad motor anyway), but better charging specs, massaging seats, cooled 2nd row, captain chairs, and Apple CarPlay. Personally like the interior style and layout of the Rivian better but I didn’t hate the EV9 either. That’s pretty subjective though. Same with exterior style; I like them both.

IMO the interior of the EV9 felt cheap, with too much plastic. Most importantly I found the driving experience of the Rivian to be exceptional, the ride height, handling and power were much better then the EV9.

 

[NCRivian]

It's my understanding (and someone correct me if I'm wrong) Rivian won't provide the trade-in value until you have locked your order, which the $1000 deposit no longer is refundable.

Either way, that's not a good process.

I just spoke to someone from the Rivian sales team. I have an R1t and have had a $1,000 reservation for the R1s for a year now. They called asking if I was ready to confirm order and I asked if I could get trade in quote first. She was able to do this for me. Seems like if you’ll call a salesperson, they’ll give you a trade in quote even if you don’t have an order.

 

[Jiji]

Wow...that didn't take long. I'm shocked they are so quickly discouting them already!

Some on cars.com are offered for almost $10k under MSRP with $3750 KIA Cash and no fees other than a $500 doc fee. It’s a new model and I would wait for the discounts to reach EV6 levels which can have higher discounts.

Plus if EV demand is slacking:

Kia slashes EV6, EV9 prices by up to $10K in Korea to boost demand

 

[R1Tom]

Acceleration is good. I don't need to hit 60 miles an hour from a stop in 3 seconds under any circumstances on the street. That's what I'm saying. The only place that would be needed is a drag strip where I"m having fun. So I'd glady give up that 3 second run for a 6 second run if it would provide another 100 miles of range. EVs are already lacking in range compared to ICE cars, so to have parity, I'd rather see more range and less performance. You apparently disagree and that's fine.

Regarding your 335i....if you're going to build a car, you really need to do it right. No way is a stock clutch going to handle the extra power/torque when you start getting into serious modifcations and tuning. I went with a South Bend clutch in my Audi and kept the dual-mass flywheel. That way, I had all the benefits of the stock clutch set up and a lot more clamping force with the South Bend pressure plate and clutch. It still feels like the stock clutch, but doesn't slip at all and that's pretty good for a quattro Audi that doesn't spin it's tires. The clutch is a key part of putting power to the ground in a powerful AWD car.

EV's and ICE are very different in regards to performance vs efficiency.

In ICE large horsepower generally means low efficiency. A 650hp V8 might get 14mpg but a 200hp I4 might get 35mpg. So it works the way you state with ICE.

But with EV, the motors are about as efficient they are going to get, regardless of if they are capable of generating 835hp or 300hp. Sure the 300hp might be capable of very slightly better efficiency, but not significant. The only way to really pick up more range....is bigger battery packs. Smaller HP motors don't really make much of an impact. And smaller HP motors don't reduce cost to build the vehicle by large amounts so that larger batteries can be added without raising the vehicle sale price.

So for a 300hp R1T/S, the savings Rivian could realize with that smaller HP drivetrain, doesn't add up enough to add much additional battery pack size. So more battery...pretty much means more cost....regardless of motor HP reduction.

Maybe they could drop out the whole front drive unit and go rear wheel drive and save a fair amount to add back cost as additional battery, but they wouldn't sell enough to justify it.

So I suspect the sales would be pretty low for a 300hp R1T/S with 500 mile range with a sale price of $90k. Just ballparking numbers....

 

[Tango45]

0-60 in 3 seconds is virtually meaningless to me. I'd trade a 3-second 0-60 time for an additional 100 miles of range with a 0-60 in 6 seconds in a heartbeat, all day every day. Why? Because I'd find the extra range a thousand times more useful than neck-breaking hard acceleration. As long as my vehicle has enough power to get through traffic easily, then I'm a happy camper. I don't need or want a stoplight dragster. Give me more range (and efficiency) instead, please.

 

[R1TS]

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