Fast Charging profitability

[Count Orlok]

This is why The Count's network will have a $20 per session surcharge for teslaas.

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[Riviot]

This is why The Count's network will have a $20 per session surcharge for teslaas.

Teslass*

 

[NDIrish]

I just finished my final project for a grad class and used this article as a reference, it's a pretty good read on how to get DCFC to profitability and off subsidies. It's only a few months old but used a lot of 2022 data that seems really outdated already with owner operators already increasing rates beyond their suggestions.

Enjoy!

https://www.mckinsey.com/features/m...g-stations-be-profitable-in-the-united-states

I still think the best business model would be to install fast chargers at every SONIC location. I mean who wouldn't order a milkshake or slushie at minimum while waiting.

 

[ATL_R1S]

I still think the best business model would be to install fast chargers at every SONIC location. I mean who wouldn't order a milkshake or slushie at minimum while waiting.

This and every single Buc-ee's should have chargers lining the parking lots, as many already do, but they should embrace them more to the point where there are just as many chargers as gas pumps, making their locations as much of a 30+minute destination for EVs as ICE vehicles. "Plug-ee's" just hits so well.

 

[emoore]

This and every single Buc-ee's should have chargers lining the parking lots, as many already do, but they should embrace them more to the point where they are as much of a destination for EVs as ICE vehicles. "Plug-ee's" just hits so well.

Same with all the travel stops. I see that Pilot/Flying J are putting in EVGo chargers but only 4. Hopefully they have room to expand.

 

[UnsungZero_OldTimeAdMan]

Thanks for sharing, I was surprised, especially living in SoCal and seeing how crowded stations are here, that the national average utilization for 2022 was only about 7.5%. That is less than 2 hours of use for a Charger per day.

If you think about how the datapoint is calculated, shouldn’t be surprising. While charging sites you are familiar with—in a densely populated major metro area—are constantly busy, there are many little used sites in remote areas plus unpopular slower ones. Tally and average usage of all sites, the less used sites will expectedly skew results. Besides, even for sites that are busy during the day, many of the are empty past 1am.

 

[sub]

I don't like that they assume lower income city/apartment dwellers are going to do most of their charging at DC fast chargers. While that is the only option for many people today, that shouldn't be the long term solution.

Those lower income city/apartment dwellers need charging to be as cheap as possible, and DC charging is inherently more expensive than AC charging.

Since there appears to be near universal agreement that eventually, all passenger vehicles will be electric, city planners should start ... planning.

Every new or renovated residential property should be required to install EV charging outlets at every parking space, and every time a street with street parking is repaved it should be updated with EV charging outlets at every parking space.

 

[UnsungZero_OldTimeAdMan]

I don't like that they assume lower income city/apartment dwellers are going to do most of their charging at DC fast chargers. While that is the only option for many people today, that shouldn't be the long term solution.

Those lower income city/apartment dwellers need charging to be as cheap as possible, and DC charging is inherently more expensive than AC charging.

Since there appears to be near universal agreement that eventually, all passenger vehicles will be electric, city planners should start ... planning.

Every new or renovated residential property should be required to install EV charging outlets at every parking space, and every time a street with street parking is repaved it should be updated with EV charging outlets at every parking space.

Eventually charging should be accessible to all income levels. But right now, average price of BEVs is still too high. So automakers need to address that. Hopefully on their own because I don’t think many of them deserve any more taxpayer funded incentives to make up for their shortsightedness (looking at you, GM).

Municipal planning front, new developments should be required to invest in certain amounts of renewable power generation, to scale of each building size. And there should be incentives to retrofit existing developments. However small each power system is, if more could contribute in power generation, the grid as a whole will be better off.

More highway rest areas should be converted to charging sites, with restaurants and cafes… also with renewable power generation installed.

 

[RivRyan]

The business model for gas stations is quick pick-up. Charging takes longer, but is incredibly less frequent. Plans should take that into account.

Another factor is that the barriers to entry aren't as high as for gas stations. And it's not clear to me that there will be significant economies of scale. Current networks are mostly manufacturer-sponsored to overcome consumer concern (or to satisfy legal liabilities).

So I might expect an end state with more small scale sites linked to businesses looking to pull people in for 20-30 minutes.

This seems to offer small towns along major travel routes some interesting opportunities -- imagine a setting in which roughly the same number of cars now pulling off for 5 minutes have to pull off for 20, and do so more often. The mix of offerings from junk food/fast food to fast casual/sit-down seems likely to move towards the right. Especially if you can order your sit-down meal ahead of time by phone.

If I were a Cracker Barrel exec, I'd probably be thinking about charging stations, and also spin-offs to meet other dining tastes.

 

[RivRyan]

I suspect the urban lower-income setting isn't as difficult as people think, though mostly from my perhaps limited Chicago perspective. Much of Chicago's poorer population lives in areas of 2 or 3-story apartment buildings which often do have parking in the back. In these, the trick may be developing home charging based on PINs, so that you can pull the cable over to your vehicle, charge up and have the cost allocated to you, not your neighbor.

People in larger apartment buildings either have parking in the building or rely on transit. It's only in wealthier 3-flat neighborhoods that the ratio of cars to people goes well above the number of private parking spaces. It will be more difficult to own an EV in Lincoln Park than in Englewood.

In other cities, my sense is that apartment dwellers often live in complexes with parking lots, so PIN-access charging would seem to be viable.

 

[ATL_R1S]

If I were a Cracker Barrel exec, I'd probably be thinking about charging stations, and also spin-offs to meet other dining tastes.

I don't disagree with this, but was reminded that the patrons of this establishment threw a collective fit and claimed they had gone "woke" when vegan sausage was introduced as a menu option, so imagine what they'll do when "them libruls and their daggum soul-less EVs" start pulling up to charge and dine on their trips...

I could see every charger being ICEd by lifted RAM 1500s every Sunday in protest.

 

[sub]

More highway rest areas should be converted to charging sites, with restaurants and cafes… also with renewable power generation installed.

I agree that rest areas are the ideal spot for chargers, but there is a federal law that forbids commercial activity at (federally funded) rest areas. Restaurants/cafes are clearly off limits and I would expect that charging is too.

The law really should be repealed/changed to permit charging at rest areas. But the odds of that happening are quite low. The logical time to make that change was in the 2021 Infrastructure Investment and Jobs Act that established the National Electric Vehicle Infrastructure Program. Since it wasn't included there, I wouldn't hold my breath for this to be changed anytime soon.

 

[UnsungZero_OldTimeAdMan]

I agree that rest areas are the ideal spot for chargers, but there is a federal law that forbids commercial activity at (federally funded) rest areas. Restaurants/cafes are clearly off limits and I would expect that charging is too.

The law really should be repealed/changed to permit charging at rest areas. But the odds of that happening are quite low. The logical time to make that change was in the 2021 Infrastructure Investment and Jobs Act that established the National Electric Vehicle Infrastructure Program. Since it wasn't included there, I wouldn't hold my breath for this to be changed anytime soon.

Don't know how unlikely until we try. These plots of federal land could be leased to charging networks and restaurant chains. Create jobs and dollars that could feed back into additional investment in infrastructure. The point of having a representative government is to pass and amend laws with (or against) changing times. Whether that government is motivated or receptive to needs of voters... that's up to the voters isn't it? whether they cast their vote for their own good, or allow themselves to be swayed by powerful interests for the opposite.

 

[RivRyan]

> These plots of federal land could be leased to charging networks and restaurant chains.

These plots of land could always have been leased to gas station and restaurant chains. There's no new factor here that makes them any better for this purpose.

 

[COdogman]

I haven't received a call from your professor so I assume either you have been expelled or he/ she is fine with your usage...

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