Mixed Signals from Governments on EV Proliferation

[Riviot]

This Forum is comprised generally of EV enthusiasts. We will make the switch in spite of the of the use tax situation. I am concerned that governmental greed will take over and make choosing an EV economically undesirable. This rush to tax EV's can only set back the movement to eliminate ICE vehicles.

Brian

1. Bureaucracy can hardly be called "a rush"
2. These EV taxes are literally being used to subsidize EV adoption by lower income folks in many states.
3. Gas guzzling lifted trucks are uneconomical, but people still pay it and unknowingly pay a ton of taxes in the process. Is that governmental greed? I dare you to tell the next confederate flag-waving FL panhandler their pickup is a tax-hog instead of a gas-hog
4. You gotta pay the troll toll if you want to get into the boy's soul

-Riviot

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[moosetags]

1. Bureaucracy can hardly be called "a rush"
2. These EV taxes are literally being used to subsidize EV adoption by lower income folks in many states.
3. Gas guzzling lifted trucks are uneconomical, but people still pay it and unknowingly pay a ton of taxes in the process. Is that governmental greed? I dare you to tell the next confederate flag-waving FL panhandler their pickup is a tax-hog instead of a gas-hog
4. You gotta pay the troll toll if you want to get into the boy's soul

-Riviot

1. Bureaucracy can always rush when it comes to implementing additional taxes. They just can't seem to do anything else in a timely fashion.

2. Can these folks afford all these EV taxes once they have an EV?????

3. I am a Florida Panhandler (sans the Confederate Flag). I own and drive an 8000# Chevrolet Silverado 3/4 ton Diesel Pick-up. It is bright red in color. My Florida registration fee is $140/year. I consider that quite reasonable. The "Good Ole Boys" often compliment me on my truck at the gas station or the Walmart parking lot.

4. I have always paid my share of the tolls.

Brian

 

[Mjhirsch78]

That seems reasonable.

Doing a quick search the average miles driven in WA is 12k and the gas tax is 49.5 cents per gallon, 225 is equivalent 454.5 gallons so that is what someone would pay driving 12k miles getting 26.4 miles per gallon.

Sure it would be more equitable to have a calculation based on vehicle weight and miles driven but a lot harder for the government to manage that.

Yup.

 

[E.S.]

I dare you to tell the next confederate flag-waving FL panhandler their pickup is a tax-hog instead of a gas-hog

hey, HEY! How dare you ..., um, you ... er, damn it! I got nuthin 'cause you're not wrong!! ?

 

[Atlrivian]

1. Bureaucracy can hardly be called "a rush"
2. These EV taxes are literally being used to subsidize EV adoption by lower income folks in many states.
3. Gas guzzling lifted trucks are uneconomical, but people still pay it and unknowingly pay a ton of taxes in the process. Is that governmental greed? I dare you to tell the next confederate flag-waving FL panhandler their pickup is a tax-hog instead of a gas-hog
4. You gotta pay the troll toll if you want to get into the boy's soul

-Riviot

 

[Eeyore]

What a selfish and Baby Boomer way to look at it. ??‍

Well, I am a boomer, so I guess that fits, but to say selfish because I want to pay less tax just isn't right.

If they want to raise more revenue for roads, they could raise the gas tax and I'd be fine with that. The higher gas prices go, the more incentive to go electric.

If they changed the whole taxation to a formula that included vehicle weight and miles driven I guess that would be more equal. And add a yearly fee for people who think they just have to have studded tires.

 

[Zoidz]

Well, I am a boomer, so I guess that fits, but to say selfish because I want to pay less tax just isn't right.

If they want to raise more revenue for roads, they could raise the gas tax and I'd be fine with that. The higher gas prices go, the more incentive to go electric.

If they changed the whole taxation to a formula that included vehicle weight and miles driven I guess that would be more equal. And add a yearly fee for people who think they just have to have studded tires.

Agree. Being opposed to a mileage tax is not in and of itself boomer defining, or selfish. IMO, that's an ignorant statement.

[Soapbox]
I'm not against a mileage tax IF there is a sweeping overhaul of the road funding/taxation. But without an overhaul, I am against adding a mileage tax, an EV registration surcharge, and who know what else in the future politicians dream up. Anyone for an "EV infrastructure charger surcharge", "battery lifetime hazmat fee", "First responder EV Training Surcharge", "Tow Truck Industry Jump Starter Incentive Surcharge", etc.

In Pennsylvania, this crap happens all the time. We have bridges collapsing, yet the Pennsylvania legislature for years has been diverting BILLIONS of $$$$ of Road Taxes to fund the State Police. EVs present a huge opportunity for creative taxation to continue the misappropration of funds.
[/Soapbox]

 

[moosetags]

Agree. Being opposed to a mileage tax is not in and of itself boomer defining, or selfish. IMO, that's an ignorant statement.

[Soapbox]
I'm not against a mileage tax IF there is a sweeping overhaul of the road funding/taxation. But without an overhaul, I am against adding a mileage tax, an EV registration surcharge, and who know what else in the future politicians dream up. Anyone for an "EV infrastructure charger surcharge", "battery lifetime hazmat fee", "First responder EV Training Surcharge", "Tow Truck Industry Jump Starter Incentive Surcharge", etc.

In Pennsylvania, this crap happens all the time. We have bridges collapsing, yet the Pennsylvania legislature for years has been diverting BILLIONS of $$$$ of Road Taxes to fund the State Police. EVs present a huge opportunity for creative taxation to continue the misappropration of funds.
[/Soapbox]

I totally agree. That is very well said. I am afraid that this whole EV transition will become a taxation panacea for politicians at all levels.

Brian

 

[zefram47]

Mileage based taxes are kinda dumb. How often do you drive out of your state of residence? How would those states get their tax? Guarantee that tracking mileage along with GPS location is a serious non-starter. Colorado charges $50/year for the privilege of driving an EV. If you assume a 50 mpg ICE like a Prius, that's the equivalent of 250 gallons of fuel with our $0.20/gal gas tax. That translates to 12.5k miles in said equivalent Prius. States looking to charge $100+ are likely ripping off EV drivers. Now, part of the CO fee also goes to improving EV charging infrastructure in the state, not just a replacement for fuel road use taxes, etc.

 

[sub]

I like nice well maintained roads. I am fine paying my fair share to maintain the roads.

My understanding is that weight has a big impact on road wear. So it seems fair to charge heavy vehicles (which includes EV's) a bigger chunk of the road maintenance tax. Old, inefficient vehicles don't cause increased road wear, no need to charge them higher road maintenance tax.

BUT gas guzzlers do a lot more damage to the air. And they should be paying to clean up that mess. Gov should figure out how much it currently costs clean up the mess produced by burning a gallon of gas, and add at least that much tax to each gallon of gas. I say at least, because we not only need to clean up the mess going forward, we have a 100 year backlog of mess that needs cleaning.

And for the EV critics who say that EV's are going to create a mess that needs to be cleaned up when the battery needs to be disposed of or recycled, when the time for that comes, the cost of that should be paid for by the manufacturer (who will pass it on to their customers).

Everyone should pay to clean up the mess they make.

 

[Zoidz]

Mileage based taxes are kinda dumb. How often do you drive out of your state of residence? How would those states get their tax? Guarantee that tracking mileage along with GPS location is a serious non-starter. Colorado charges $50/year for the privilege of driving an EV. If you assume a 50 mpg ICE like a Prius, that's the equivalent of 250 gallons of fuel with our $0.20/gal gas tax. That translates to 12.5k miles in said equivalent Prius. States looking to charge $100+ are likely ripping off EV drivers. Now, part of the CO fee also goes to improving EV charging infrastructure in the state, not just a replacement for fuel road use taxes, etc.

Mileage based tax with a weight factor is the most fair. Over the long term, I think that's what you will see. A 25,000 lb box truck doing 260 round trips a year on the same road does a lot more damage than my motorcycle, yet we pay the same per gallon fuel tax. For commercial vehicles over 26,000 lbs, this has been done for a long time, with each state getting their presumably fair share of mileage tax.

I can't speak for other states, but when you renew your vehicle registration and your car is inspected, the mileage is recorded. That provides the basis for documenting mileage and calculating/collecting the weight based mileage fee. This has been proposed in Pennsylvania.

 

[zefram47]

I can't speak for other states, but when you renew your vehicle registration and your car is inspected, the mileage is recorded. That provides the basis for documenting mileage and calculating/collecting the weight based mileage fee. This has been proposed in Pennsylvania.

Again, how is it fair for your state of registration/residence to collect mileage tax for miles traveled in another state and/or those other states to not receive taxes for your travel in them?

 

[Zoidz]

Again, how is it fair for your state of registration/residence to collect mileage tax for miles traveled in another state and/or those other states to not receive taxes for your travel in them?

It's not much different than it is now with gas tax. People live or work in one state, commute to another. Most buy gas where it is cheapest, regardless of where they actually use it. That's not fair either, but it's been happening since the 1940s-1950s when car travel exploded. It's a relatively small amount of revenue compared to the big picture, and it happens in both directions. People who live in Pennsylvania commute to New Jersey, and vice versa.

In the end - “Nothing is fair in this world. You might as well get that straight right now” ― Sue Monk Kidd, "The Secret Life of Bees"

 

[Craigins]

Again, how is it fair for your state of registration/residence to collect mileage tax for miles traveled in another state and/or those other states to not receive taxes for your travel in them?

It is easy enough to create a device that records mileage by state using gps.

This device would need to be very simple, with no form of wireless communication. Also the software used would need to be open source software, inspectable by the public. This way the device would not track your location, and would not be capable of being hacked or warranted to turn into a tracking device.

Then much like large metropolitan areas and emissions testing, states can set up annual inspections that manually download the data, prior to being eligible for license plate renewal.

 

[Riviot]

Being opposed to a mileage tax is not in and of itself boomer defining, or selfish. IMO, that's an ignorant statement.

Go back to the original context, friend.

Currently, I'm opposed to a per mile tax because I typically drive 24K+ a year, but once I retire, I'd be more agreeable as I expect my annual milage to decrease significantly.

Opposition to a tax you would currently have to pay, but accepting this tax when you don't have to pay it while reaping the benefits, is textbook Baby Boomer behavior. Look at the tax breaks following that generation for the last three decades.

-1990s tax changes to income and homeownership (boomer wealth building years)
-Early 2000s tax changes to retirement investment (boomers preparing to retire)
-2002 change to estate tax (greatest generation dying and boomer inheritance)
-2005 attempt to privatize social security for non-boomers while keeping it in tact for boomers
-2017 tax cuts benefiting corporations and shareholders (boomer retirees) while increasing taxes for income earners

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