R1T Range Extender!?

[godfodder0901]

Ford makes what 2 EVs(lightning and mach e) that are a tiny fraction of their sales? The majority of the public does not want EVs anytime soon. A series hybrid would be a great transition option.

That's kind of my point... OP references this crazy huge demand lever for extended range electric vehicles, then points to the CEO of a car company that makes ZERO EREVs as the 'proof'...

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[zefram47]

I really hope that Rivian is not religious about this like some of the folks in this forum are..

There is a clear market appetite and there are many use cases for a gas range extender. If Rivian doesn't offer a gas range extender, they will loose customers/sales to other brands - it's as easy as that. So from a business standpoint, they should probably partner with or procure from Scout..

I have a Scout on reservation and I'm switching over if the Scout truck works well and the Gen3 R1T doesn't offer a gas range extender

The market demand for an EREV is really not going to be very large at all and not worth Rivian's time. The vast majority buy a truck for perceived truck things and things they might do...often not reality. I've towed a car on a 1000 mile roundtrip. The biggest annoyance wasn't really the range of my R1T while towing, it was lack of convenient (pull-through / where we need them) and fully-functioning infrastructure leading to much deeper charges than I really wanted in order to make it to the next one. If we actually had reliable charging every 50 miles on all major routes it would be *far* less of a problem. But even then, the number of people that actually tow long-distance is probably the smallest fraction of Rivian's target market. For those folks, the GM EV trucks with batteries nearly twice the size of Rivian's are the answer. Or if folks really believe this is a big enough issue to leave Rivian, look at the RAM EREV, if it ever actually comes out...but the efficiency is not good...and it's a Dodge.

 

[Captblue]

When Kyle reviewed the Scout 2 months ago here is one of the comments from viewers.

“Kyle, l've watched your videos for maybe 18 months. I'm a diehard combustion engine guy but enthusiastic about what electric vehicles can do. I've never seen one of your videos and said to my self that I have switch to an electric vehicle....until today. For the first time, even before the video reached the point where you interviewed Nicole, I was sold. I put down a deposit for a reservation on the Scout Traveler EREV. It was the right combination of style, functionality, and ability to have that small combustion engine to save your a$$ when you need it and you know you're gonna need it at some point. After your conversation with Nicole, it made me even more enthusiastic about Scout. I am hopeful that in 2-3 years, I'll be able to purchase my first EV, a Scout Traveler!”



This is the current mentality of 90% of current Americans

 

[Rivianero]

TLDR:

• Additional complexity of any hybrid system results in lower overall reliability
• Hybrids are a compromise that delivers do-everything flexibility at the expense of reduced capability in other areas
• There may be narrow use cases where a hybrid or range-extender could be just perfect for your need. If that's the case, go buy one. Oops, wait, no one actually makes one... Maybe there's a reason for that.

≠=====

<RambleFollows/>

Putting all politics and philosophy aside, I can say that my experience transitioning from a plug-in hybrid to an R1T has been a huge step up in performance, reliability, and reduced mechanical complexity.

My Volvo XC90 Recharge has what I consider an elegant system. It is a brilliant piece of engineering that results in a vehicle that is worse than either the pure BEV or pure ICE versions of the same SUV.

The PHEV has a dual motor setup without mechanically linking the ICE and electric drive system. The front axle is driven by the ICE motor, but can also be driven electrically by an oversized starter/alternator. The real axel is only electrically driven. Even then, as every hybrid owner will tell you, these systems are much more complicated that either pure ICE or BEV. As a simple function of math, that means hybrids have a greater probability of failure. This really can't be engineered away without adding parallel redundancy. Similarly, all hybrids require greater maintenance and lower operational efficiency. Both the battery and gas tank capacities are greatly reduced versus the pure EV or pure ICE versions of this vehicle. Volvo does make both. I see many pure ICE or BEV versions on the road in my area, but rarely spot the hybrid version. Reliability and resale value of the hybrid version is accordingly lowest of the flock

I bought the Volvo because it had enough battery capacity to run many of my daily errands on "pure electric" (I worked from home so had no commute) but could also tow our boat and handle long road trips without any range anxiety. For the most part, it performed the mission as intended. I also appreciated the multiple drive modes and the 400hp when I occasionally needed that. However, there was always a longer drive where I had to switch to gasoline and paid the price of low efficiency for carrying around a heavy empty battery. Towing the boat 250 miles meant I still had to stop for gas twice. It was good at everything but great at very little. We still ended up renting vehicles for those super long road trips, just to avoid putting wear and tear on our own vehicles.

Reliability of my Volvo wasn't perfect. It would have been costly if I were not a nerd and passable mechanic. Volvo, like Rivian, restricts access to technical information and tools.

I paid about the same for the used Volvo as I did my salvaged R1T. My Rivian is more reliable and more capable by almost every measure. I'm very aware of all the issues others have had with their Rivians; this forum serves to give voice (and often amplify) to those concerns.

The Rivian does everything better than the Volvo.

Towing our boat the same distance only requires one stop to recharge with the R1T max battery, but it does take longer and I generally do have to unhitch the boat. Not something we do all that often. If I wanted to tow anything long distances on the regular I should have bought a different vehicle. Rivian's simply aren't made for that. It is not an optimized function of the vehicle.

If you simply count the number of moving parts, my R1T has less than half of the Volvo. I suppose one trades off mechanical complexity for computational complexity, the difference being that software updates can often resolve computational issues, as has been the case for all of us. Anyway, as any reliability engineer can tell you: less to break generally means less will break.

I am equally restricted by Rivian for access to technical info and diagnostic tools. (Help me advocate for right to repair.) My vehicle has no warranty. Nonetheless, I am confident that I can address most repair and maintenance needs because of the simplicity of the vehicle. Prices Rivian has charge me for repairs and maintenance have been very reasonable ($60 to rotate tires; $4k to repair damage to the hydraulic system caused by the salvage yard) and the staff have been great. I have every expectation that total cost of ownership for the R1T will be far lower than any other vehicle of comparable capability or price range. I intend to keep it for 20 years like I did my last pickup.


Anyway, hybrids (including range extenders, which are simply ICE generators allowed to recharge the battery while driving) are a bit of an engineering delusion, not so different from perpetual motion machines. The logical flaw is that it tries to sidestep the simple truth that systems (machines) can only be optimized for a single function. Every decision made to optimize that one function typically results in suboptimal choices for other functions. When you optimize a vehicle to use both electric and gasoline as power sources, other aspects of the vehicle will suffer. There's simply no free lunch here. Everything is a compromise.

Sometimes the multi-use compromise makes sense (think Swiss army knife) but you have to accept that a do-all solution is going to be less good at doing any one thing than a solution optimized for a single function.

 

[Erik+]

Range extender for long range towing is a horrible use case. Who the heck wants to stop to fast charge, stop to fuel to get the maximum range. If you need long range towing just get a diesel until other more advanced options are available. Drive a pure EV for other things where it makes sense. The range extender for long range towing is akin to bringing a knife to a gun fight, bring the right tool for the job at hand, not the worst of both worlds.

 

[Newtonrj]

Totally agree. And I believe that day will come. We are seeing all electric heavy equipment more widely available now, and between advances in battery and charging tech we will see larger EVs that are also practical. And there will always be hybrids available for those who don’t want that - obviously the legacy manufacturers aren’t capable of ripping off the band aid.

I disagree that the Ramcharger design is the same as the i3 though. The i3 range extender only kicked in when the battery got low enough and only charged the battery. The Ramcharger description says it can also provide increased power to the motor and gearbox. I’m not an engineer, but that tells me there is a more complicated interface between ”generator” and EV.

When I see the word “innovative” I think “new” and that is a scary thought when it’s coming from Stellantis

Me thinks that when they tested a fully charged 76Kwh battery pulling 14k lbs for the 39 miles it has range to do, it can't pull up any real incline. To make that happen, they needed more amperage. Thus a bigger V6 ICE motor and inverter were specified into the design to buttress enough energy to the motors for hauling up hills while also extending range from 39 miles to 229 miles under load (likely flat land distance range). It is also noteworthy that the +690mile range drops to 229 miles towing (read: 8.3mpg). Positively, they tested to SAE J2807 standards saying to Forbes that even with a 35% SOC they could meet the standard hauling 14k lbs up "11 mile climb with 3,500-ft elevation change at 100 deg F and air conditioning on"

 

[RivianRiverRat]

The evolution of RJ and his vehicle ethos

Before his battery behemoths, Rivian's billionaire founder made an eco sports car - Hagerty Media

Scaringe says the car will be fun to drive, carry four people, and according to the company’s fledgling website, get twice the mileage of today’s hybrids. That’s the only claim I heard during my visit to the company that I question because double a Toyota Prius would be close to 100 miles per gallon. (And yes, Scaringe told me that was not out of the question.)
The Avera will likely be a diesel hybrid. The car will be mid-engined—meaning the engine is right behind the rear seat —and rear-wheel-drive. This setup is regarded as the optimum drivetrain configuration for performance and handling by companies such as Ferrari and Lamborghini. The basic platform would be “flexible,” Scaringe says, meaning that once the Avera sports coupe is under way, the platform could support, say, a two-seat convertible, a small SUV, or any number of vehicles.
Price? Around $25,000.

The four-seat, rear-wheel-drive car is expected to get more than 60 miles per gallon, even though it has a conventional gasoline engine. That model would debut as early as 2012. Not far behind, perhaps in two years, another powertrain using a diesel engine and plug-in hybrid technology could top 80 mpg.

Rivian CEO Warns Legacy Automakers Against Underinvesting In EVs In Light Of Trump's Policy Shift: 'Big Miscalculation For Long Term' - Rivian Automotive (NASDAQ:RIVN) - Benzinga

"If you’re optimizing purely for profitability the next two years and you're a traditional legacy manufacturer, you could very easily make the spreadsheet case to say, ‘let’s double down on combustion,' or ‘let’s double down on hybrids,' which I think is a big miscalculation for the long term," Scaringe said in the interview.
"I say this all the time to friends of mine who run big car companies: ‘Don't stop investing. You're going find yourself in the 2030s, upside down.’ Rivian, Tesla, the Chinese—we have a full-throttle focus on EVs. And if you're doing that as your 10% job as an [automaker], you're going to be in rough shape in 10 years."


'You're Going To Be In Rough Shape': Rivian CEO To Rivals Backing Off EVs

Regardless of where U.S. policy goes or doesn’t go from here, the transition to electric transportation is well underway around the world. Take China, for example. That country has exploded onto the scene as the largest and most advanced maker of electric and electrified cars on the planet. EV sales are growing fast in China, and its homegrown automakers like BYD are making inroads around the world at a blistering pace.
Sales of internal combustion vehicles peaked globally in 2017 and have been in decline ever since. Government policy kicked off the shift and definitely helps, but consumer demand and dropping EV prices will keep it going, experts say.

 

[MacO512]

When Kyle reviewed the Scout 2 months ago here is one of the comments from viewers.

“Kyle, l've watched your videos for maybe 18 months. I'm a diehard combustion engine guy but enthusiastic about what electric vehicles can do. I've never seen one of your videos and said to my self that I have switch to an electric vehicle....until today. For the first time, even before the video reached the point where you interviewed Nicole, I was sold. I put down a deposit for a reservation on the Scout Traveler EREV. It was the right combination of style, functionality, and ability to have that small combustion engine to save your a$$ when you need it and you know you're gonna need it at some point. After your conversation with Nicole, it made me even more enthusiastic about Scout. I am hopeful that in 2-3 years, I'll be able to purchase my first EV, a Scout Traveler!”



This is the current mentality of 90% of current Americans

Agreed! Yeah I think a lot of people who owned an EV of this type with gas backup would seriously consider a full EV for their next vehicle purchase. Getting some real options on the market will do more to help the charging infrastructure and transition to EV than any of these extreme ideologist that avoid fuel no matter the application.

 

[mkg3]

...When I said 600 miles of an ICE without stopping. It is not just on a road trip. It is also in a work environment. Without stopping to fill up. ...

Really dumb question. Is there ICE lightweight vehicle (not semi) that can tow for 600 miles? If so what is the range without towing? 1,000 miles??

It seems that the expectation is unrealistic to me but I maybe very ignorant about the range of ICE vehicle towing. My experience towing with ICE vehicle is that there still is a large hit to the range, albeit nothing like EVs.

My sense is if EVs can get around 400 miles range and that equates to towing of roughly 200ish miles, then it's viable for vast majority of people. In doing so, it just needs to not weigh 10K lbs+ for the vehicle alone.

There are several companies already committing to SSB in 2026 so I expect SSB to be the mainstream within 5 years.

 

[MacO512]

TLDR:

• Additional complexity of any hybrid system results in lower overall reliability
• Hybrids are a compromise that delivers do-everything flexibility at the expense of reduced capability in other areas
• There may be narrow use cases where a hybrid or range-extender could be just perfect for your need. If that's the case, go buy one. Oops, wait, no one actually makes one... Maybe there's a reason for that.

≠=====

<RambleFollows/>

Putting all politics and philosophy aside, I can say that my experience transitioning from a plug-in hybrid to an R1T has been a huge step up in performance, reliability, and reduced mechanical complexity.

My Volvo XC90 Recharge has what I consider an elegant system. It is a brilliant piece of engineering that results in a vehicle that is worse than either the pure BEV or pure ICE versions of the same SUV.

The PHEV has a dual motor setup without mechanically linking the ICE and electric drive system. The front axle is driven by the ICE motor, but can also be driven electrically by an oversized starter/alternator. The real axel is only electrically driven. Even then, as every hybrid owner will tell you, these systems are much more complicated that either pure ICE or BEV. As a simple function of math, that means hybrids have a greater probability of failure. This really can't be engineered away without adding parallel redundancy. Similarly, all hybrids require greater maintenance and lower operational efficiency. Both the battery and gas tank capacities are greatly reduced versus the pure EV or pure ICE versions of this vehicle. Volvo does make both. I see many pure ICE or BEV versions on the road in my area, but rarely spot the hybrid version. Reliability and resale value of the hybrid version is accordingly lowest of the flock

I bought the Volvo because it had enough battery capacity to run many of my daily errands on "pure electric" (I worked from home so had no commute) but could also tow our boat and handle long road trips without any range anxiety. For the most part, it performed the mission as intended. I also appreciated the multiple drive modes and the 400hp when I occasionally needed that. However, there was always a longer drive where I had to switch to gasoline and paid the price of low efficiency for carrying around a heavy empty battery. Towing the boat 250 miles meant I still had to stop for gas twice. It was good at everything but great at very little. We still ended up renting vehicles for those super long road trips, just to avoid putting wear and tear on our own vehicles.

Reliability of my Volvo wasn't perfect. It would have been costly if I were not a nerd and passable mechanic. Volvo, like Rivian, restricts access to technical information and tools.

I paid about the same for the used Volvo as I did my salvaged R1T. My Rivian is more reliable and more capable by almost every measure. I'm very aware of all the issues others have had with their Rivians; this forum serves to give voice (and often amplify) to those concerns.

The Rivian does everything better than the Volvo.

Towing our boat the same distance only requires one stop to recharge with the R1T max battery, but it does take longer and I generally do have to unhitch the boat. Not something we do all that often. If I wanted to tow anything long distances on the regular I should have bought a different vehicle. Rivian's simply aren't made for that. It is not an optimized function of the vehicle.

If you simply count the number of moving parts, my R1T has less than half of the Volvo. I suppose one trades off mechanical complexity for computational complexity, the difference being that software updates can often resolve computational issues, as has been the case for all of us. Anyway, as any reliability engineer can tell you: less to break generally means less will break.

I am equally restricted by Rivian for access to technical info and diagnostic tools. (Help me advocate for right to repair.) My vehicle has no warranty. Nonetheless, I am confident that I can address most repair and maintenance needs because of the simplicity of the vehicle. Prices Rivian has charge me for repairs and maintenance have been very reasonable ($60 to rotate tires; $4k to repair damage to the hydraulic system caused by the salvage yard) and the staff have been great. I have every expectation that total cost of ownership for the R1T will be far lower than any other vehicle of comparable capability or price range. I intend to keep it for 20 years like I did my last pickup.


Anyway, hybrids (including range extenders, which are simply ICE generators allowed to recharge the battery while driving) are a bit of an engineering delusion, not so different from perpetual motion machines. The logical flaw is that it tries to sidestep the simple truth that systems (machines) can only be optimized for a single function. Every decision made to optimize that one function typically results in suboptimal choices for other functions. When you optimize a vehicle to use both electric and gasoline as power sources, other aspects of the vehicle will suffer. There's simply no free lunch here. Everything is a compromise.

Sometimes the multi-use compromise makes sense (think Swiss army knife) but you have to accept that a do-all solution is going to be less good at doing any one thing than a solution optimized for a single function.

These hybrid examples you list your experiences with are horrible options IMO. Way overcomplicated junk. I'd almost never use an ICE hybrid.

A full EV with a gas generator that has zero connection to the wheels is very simple. Could probably even design it so the gas generator could be completely removed. Maybe store batteries in that place 95% of the time then drop in the generator when needed for long trips or towing.

 

[MacO512]

Really dumb question. Is there ICE lightweight vehicle (not semi) that can tow for 600 miles? If so what is the range without towing? 1,000 miles??

It seems that the expectation is unrealistic to me but I maybe very ignorant about the range of ICE vehicle towing. My experience towing with ICE vehicle is that there still is a large hit to the range, albeit nothing like EVs.

My sense is if EVs can get around 400 miles range and that equates to towing of roughly 200ish miles, then it's viable for vast majority of people. In doing so, it just needs to not weigh 10K lbs+ for the vehicle alone.

There are several companies already committing to SSB in 2026 so I expect SSB to be the mainstream within 5 years.

Ice vehicles towing can refuel in 90 seconds and never need to unhook a trailer. Try doing that with an EV.

 

[Rivianero]

Unless I am mistaken, there aren't any real-world production range extender vehicles except for the discontinued BMW i3 and Chevy Volt. It seems a bit disingenuous to rave at how great something is that only exists in theory or prototype. The real world examples of range extenders have all kinda failed.

Perhaps what is really being asked here is that "charge while driving" could be enabled, so that folks would be free to load up an energy source of their choice (gas generator, auxiliary battery, solar panel, windmill, fission reactor, hamster wheel, etc.) in the bed and go nuts. That could be a cool and fairly easy to implement feature. Might want a charge port in the truck bed for that.

Not something I would ever use but you do you.

 

[R1TCntrlMaIzzy]

When Kyle reviewed the Scout 2 months ago here is one of the comments from viewers.

“Kyle, l've watched your videos for maybe 18 months. I'm a diehard combustion engine guy but enthusiastic about what electric vehicles can do. I've never seen one of your videos and said to my self that I have switch to an electric vehicle....until today. For the first time, even before the video reached the point where you interviewed Nicole, I was sold. I put down a deposit for a reservation on the Scout Traveler EREV. It was the right combination of style, functionality, and ability to have that small combustion engine to save your a$$ when you need it and you know you're gonna need it at some point. After your conversation with Nicole, it made me even more enthusiastic about Scout. I am hopeful that in 2-3 years, I'll be able to purchase my first EV, a Scout Traveler!”



This is the current mentality of 90% of current Americans

Where are the credible sources to back YOUR “90%” claim?

BTW: because people do not agree with you, it does equate to a cult.

 

[Captblue]

Google it: 6.8%
As of May 2024, the percentage of electric cars in the U.S. was 6.8% of new vehicle sales1. In 2023, the combined sales of hybrid and electric vehicles accounted for 16.3% of total new light-duty vehicle sales3. Additionally, electric vehicles currently account for about 2% of the new car market5.

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