Tapping out as well, goodbye Rivian...

[Philip]

Just wanted to mention I traded in my R1T for a Wrangler 4xe Rubicon yesterday.
The Jeep 4xe has about a 30 mile all battery (17kWh pack) range and a 340mi ICE range. It's got 375 horsepower and 470 pound-feet of torque with actual real lockers front and rear. That 30 mil battery range should suite me fine for probably 95% off my driving (I work from home). The dealer gave me $60K on the Rivian trade-in which in NY goes 100% to the pre-tax value of the new vehicle, so I actually will end up about $1,900 ahead once I file my taxes and get the $3,750 Fed tax credit early next year.

Jeep is trying to clear out 2024 models right now, so they have crazy incentives. The Rubicon was $71K, but with incentives it knocked $10K off so it was $61K before the $3,750 fed tax credit.

When trading it in, I forgot to give them the camp speaker as I replaced it with a draw a couple months back, I also forgot to give them the bag for the tonneau cover panels, I kept the NACS-J1772 adapter I just received two weeks ago, and I also kept the wristband because that did not come with my R1T. I guess I'll sell the NACS adapter as the Jeep only has level 2 charging.

I was a pre March price increase customer, after the fed tax credit I took in 2023, my R1T cost $68K, I had it for almost two full years and got $60K for it on the trade in, I consider that pretty decent.

Old ride meet new ride....

Thanks to all for the kind words!

It wasn't an easy decision to make, and I knew right off the bat that the Rubicon wouldn't ride like the R1T, but for me that's not a problem. I grew up driving pickup trucks and CJ's and this one drives way better then any of the old ones I grew up with

let's look at my driving patterns this way... I had my R1T for almost 2 full years... I only put 4,100 miles on it, so it's really just a local driver to go to Home Depot, or Costco, etc. It's not like I'm commuting 100miles every work day, I work from home.. my "commute" is from the kitchen up to my office, about a 15 second commute.

A very short list of personal turn-offs on the R1T.. this is just personal stuff for my particular situation:
- The R1T is not "NY parking spot friendly", it's very difficult to fit the large R1T in to our tight, crowded parking spot here. It's also too long for most sedan sized spots, so it's always sticking out into the lane which is a bit scary.
- Vampire Drain is just something that really bothers me (as someone with a degree in automotive engineering). I just can not fathom how Rivian can continue to claim to be a "green" company but then turn a blind eye to this wasteful issue with owners complaining about it constantly. They have moved on to Gen 2 design now and are trying to bring the R2 (which I still have a reservation for) to market as quickly as possible, so I think they are done with the R1 system and Vampire drain. It will just be a known cost of ownership thing.
- Crazy high repair pricing on body work just because it's an EV. Something as simple as a small dent in the rear quarter panel (which is by far the most common hit we seem to get in the R1T) can cost upwards of $25,000 to repair, which to me is just nuts!
- Crazy high glass (windshield and roof glass) replacement costs, and I'm always super concerned when washing the R1T that the cold hose water will crack the roof or windshield even though i always "mist" both down to cool them off prior to washing.


Luckily I never needed any service on my R1T, it was flawless from day one.

​

Everyone where I live (off road country) are getting rid of the Rubicon's - wonder about you're write up.

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[beaker]

Haha....Yeah, I don't know what they were thinking. This is absolutely disgusting!

Totally agree! The L is the worst variant. Unimaginably ugly with the combover accent line.

 

[R1Tom]

Does anyone even pay attention to IIHS crash tests and ratings? I won’t even let my daughter ride in one, much less want to ever buy one. With the state of vehicle safety technology today, there’s no reason anything that performs as poorly as a Jeep should even be allowed on the road. Rolling over on the front impact tests is just pathetic. Night and day when compared to the safety of the Rivian. I’m always amazed how this data seems to have no impact on most buyers though. Hasn’t even come up once here.

I do agree but one very big thing that must be considered is IIHS entirely ignores mass of the vehicle and it is relative to a class of vehicles.

So in many accidents involving multiple vehicles.....there are many cases where a higher rated much lighter vehicle would likely actually be alot less safe that the much heavier lower rated vehicle.

IIHS has some merit....but it is not absolute.

 

[White Shadow]

Totally agree! The L is the worst variant. Unimaginably ugly with the combover accent line.

You mean like the one on the R1S?

 

[White Shadow]

Sure and I can free solo if I want when I go climbing tomorrow. Just don’t fall and it will be fine. Or I can wear the safety gear and be protected even if I do. If we could control not having an accident safety gear wouldn’t exist.

The irony here is strong. Participate in a highly risky activity, yet be risk averse when choosing a vehicle. The behaviors don't exactly line up.

 

[beaker]

You mean like the one on the R1S?

Yeah. It's terrible on the R1S too. Luckily I don't have to deal with it but the looks improve 100x if you black it out.

 

[Jonger1150]

I'm not comparing Stellantis to Rivian. Saying Stallantis is struggling doesn't imply they are in the same situation as Rivian. Rivian has a better trajectory, but they are on the razor's edge of making it. Stellantis is a stronger company and still makes money, but if it keeps heading in the direction it's currently moving, it will be in trouble in a few years. Who knows what their EVs will do.

Personally, I think the Ramcharger will be a hit and will benefit those people who want an EV but still want the range of an ICE. IDK if that would be enough to help how much they are struggling though. I their reliability has always been troublesome.

The Ramcharger will be nice, but the price point is going to be $100K+. It could be an on-ramp for EV skeptics to get addicted to electric power and instant torque.

Rav4 owners forums are about 95% devoted to bragging about how much time they spend in all EV. If a $35,000 all electric Rav4 drops, you gotta wonder how many would swap for it.

 

[White Shadow]

Yeah. It's terrible on the R1S too. Luckily I don't have to deal with it but the looks improve 100x if you black it out.

Personally, I like it on both vehicles. But it can be blacked out on both if you don't like it.

 

[White Shadow]

I'm not comparing Stellantis to Rivian...

Sure seems like it when you say this:

....Stelantis overall is doing terribly right now, arguably worse than Rivian.

My point is that record revenues and record profits in 2023 will carry them through a bad year or two. Maybe even three. I've read comments about Stellantis going bankrupt in this very thread and I find that so ironic.... Stellantis stock is down for the last year and I'm going to buy more. I'm not confident to buy more Rivian stock though, even though it's far more down in comparison.

 

[beaker]

Personally, I like it on both vehicles. But it can be blacked out on both if you don't like it.

Oh I am sure there are some people who can tolerate it. I just mean when people wonder why Grand Cherokee sales fell off a cliff over the past couple of years, the new design is clearly one factor. All of the dealers around me are desperate to get rid of them.

 

[ads75]

Rav4 owners forums are about 95% devoted to bragging about how much time they spend in all EV. If a $35,000 all electric Rav4 drops, you gotta wonder how many would swap for it.

Probably not that many. If 95% are in all electric, why give up the gas for road trips? If they are spending that much time in EV mode, they already are rarely visiting gas stations.

 

[voxel]

I understand supply and demand. But with EVs that is not the only thing driving lower resale values. Yes, lots of teslas dumped on the market. Yes, Tesla dropped new car pricing killing the their used car market. But EVs lose value more than an ICE with the same supply and demand because of the perception that battery and other tech will age and evolve faster than ICE. It’s just another factor. No one will want to pay $50k for a used R1S in 3 years that has an original range of 310 miles. Same with other EVs.

The real answer is it is complicated.

The worst depreciating vehicle in any class is the Toyota Mirai. It stickers for $60K but you can buy a two year old model for around $15K with no accidents, etc. And technology isn't changing very quickly with HFCV as the cars are fine but the refueling infrastructure is still very new.

Why? It's a Toyota and should have amazing resale! Two reasons:

* Incentives are insane for new Mirais... $15K in free hydrogen plus $20K-$30K in lease/dealer incentives. Why buy a used one when a new lease with incentives is cheap and comes with free hydrogen? EVs have the same issue. Hyundai/Kia/BMW/Audi/MB throw out massive lease rebates - so why even bother with used unless it is $20-30K cheaper? EV9 has a $14.8K lease incentive for 24 months. Look at the R1T deals a few months ago. Why even bother with used R1Ts?

* Hydrogen is super expensive now. Once the free hydrogen credit runs out you are looking at 2x-4x times the cost of gas to refuel.

Not to mention that the current R1s have a big drop in resale even though the argument is that there still is low supply.

Market dictates true price. Rivian could ask $200K but real world prices for a R1S might be closer to $75K. Besides, many folks bought with pre-order or 20% off pricing.

 

[White Shadow]

Thanks, I've researched FORM and it's pretty much the same thing my 2014 Volt had and our 2017 i3 REX has. They all force you to use/lubricate the engine occasionally and they also try to keep gasoline sitting in the tank unused from going bad over time. Oil dilution is also an issue due to the engine and oil not reaching temps for long enough periods to burn off any gas that got past the piston rings. Just like in the Volt and i3 REX, you have to be smart about it.. if you have 28 mi electric range and have to make a 29 mi trip, don't just run on full electric till the battery is depleted then have the ICE turn itself on for the last 1 mile, that's a sure recipe for oil dilution. The trick is to switch to E-Save mode on the Jeep (which makes the ICE run) somewhere in the middle of the trip, let it get up to temp by driving on the ICE for a few miles, then switch back to all EV mode once you are close enough to your destination that you can cover it it all in full EV mode. Easy peasy rookie stuff

So far, I have a bit under 100mi on the Jeep, it's all EV miles so far, have not had to use the ICE yet including a 24mil trip I made today.

My neighbor across the street is a doctor and his hospital is a six mile drive. He thought he could do his short commute in EV mode in his new Wrangler 4xe. He was good for the first two weeks, but then the gas engines started turning on despite him trying to remain in electric mode. And with the temps getting colder, the gas engines comes on even more frequently. There are a lot of factors that force the engine to run, even with a full battery. To say he is disappointed in an understatement. He honestly believes that he could drive all the time in electric mode unless he was driving a longest distance than the battery is capable of handling.

 

[White Shadow]

Oh I am sure there are some people who can tolerate it. I just mean when people wonder why Grand Cherokee sales fell off a cliff over the past couple of years, the new design is clearly one factor. All of the dealers around me are desperate to get rid of them.

This is incorrect. So far this year, Grand Cherokee sales are down quite a bit, but the years prior, they had VERY high sales numbers. Quite a bit higher than the prior generation. To put the numbers in perspective, Jeep sold between 223,000 and 255,000 Grand Cherokees in the U.S. alone between 2021, 2022, and 2023. Yes, that's the current body style, known as the WL generation. In comparison, Rivian sold a little over 23,000 R1S in 2023, which was a big improvement over the prior year (800 sold) and almost 15,000 sold so far this year.

 

[beaker]

This is incorrect. So far this year, Grand Cherokee sales are down quite a bit, but the years prior, they had VERY high sales numbers. Quite a bit higher than the prior generation. To put the numbers in perspective, Jeep sold between 223,000 and 255,000 Grand Cherokees in the U.S. alone between 2021, 2022, and 2023. Yes, that's the current body style, known as the WL generation. In comparison, Rivian sold a little over 23,000 R1S in 2023, which was a big improvement over the prior year (800 sold) and almost 15,000 sold so far this year.

The previous generation was so old it was a running punchline. It's no wonder even this refresh introduced a burst of sales to the die-hard fans. Still, it's clearly on a downward trajectory. I see one or two a week at best. I have owned many Jeep products over the years including GC's. It's not like I'm some hater.

Maybe you are right and it's a smashing success and all of the dealers are discounting them so heavily just for fun? it's been going on for a year at least.

Unclear why you are comparing their numbers to an EV startup.

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