Tesla Charging cannot be the standard NA adopts to.

[DevSecOps]

Man I wish I was a psychiatrist ... I would post my number here for all the people who are obviously triggered (and in need of help) over some random rich guy. I would be rich like him!

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[COdogman]

Yeah but who is doing the allowing or not allowing? The beauty of this country is the people decide where things go (most of the time). The only reason NACS is taking off is because millions of people bought Teslas and charge at super chargers. If as many million bought a nissan leaf and charged at CHAdeMo instead maybe things would look differently. And that could all change tomorrow, if the masses aligned with the thinking here and stopped buying Tesla, stopped charging and SC, and didnt buy any other NACS car in protest. It would work. I’m certain of it. But, most people couldn’t care less and a lot of people love their Tesla. This is a case of a vocal minority and things are moving anyway. The only thing that could slow down NACS is market factors like other auto makers aligning (like they did) on CCS, sell massive volumes of CCS EVs (they are not), and throwing serious money at CCS charging (not yet).

I never bought a Tesla and never charged at an SC, so I certainly didnt move the needle to NACS. Who else protesting can say the same? I was one of the ~50K people who bought a Rivian with CCS. But Rivian certainly isnt moving any needles in terms of driving standards.

I understand your point and I don’t disagree. If people decide they like the Tesla connector then it can be the most popular option. I could honestly care less. But a “standard” should not be owned by anyone. Standards should be controlled by objective bodies, not a single attention seeking billionaire/ troll who is prone to tantrum throwing.

The federal funding is already set for CCS. This change came too late for that. But each funded CCS charger can also offer Tesla’s connector as well if that is in demand. Tesla can take advantage of it too as long as each charger they install has CCS and NACS. Tesla will still profit from the charging itself, so it really is still in their best interest to give up control of the connector.

 

[DevSecOps]

But a “standard” should not be owned by anyone.

NACS is being standardized as SAE J3400. No one owns NACS. Tesla previously called this connector the Tesla charging standard, which was proprietary. That's not the case anymore. Additionally, no one has to pay to implement NACS. If you don't want to use superchargers then don't, that's how Elon will make money. You're more than welcome to keep suffering by using Electrify America and EVGo.

https://www.sae.org/standards/content/j3400/

Why can't we all be happy to get superior charging standards. The biggest gap in EV ownership between Tesla and the rest of the mfgs is charging infrastructure. This closes that gap if you so choose to use superchargers. Elon is an EV pioneer and if it wasn't for him there's a huge likelihood Rivian wouldn't be a thing either. It's not one man that created all this. It's thousands of hard working American engineers, architects, designers and laborers. Hating on the guy who funded it all is just weird.

 

[CharonPDX]

Anyone still have a HD-DVD player around?

??‍

The *ONE* time I bet against Sony…. :mutter, mutter:

(Yes, I obviously also have Blu-ray now, but I still have some movies only on HD DVD, so I keep the player around connected to the "game room TV".)

((Bonus: It's actually an Xbox 360 HD DVD player as part of my retro game console collection.))

 

[Electrified Outdoors]

Who remembers LaserDisc? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/LaserDisc

Tesla will charge a higher rate for non-Tesla vehicles or possibly have a monthly fee like other charging networks. I really think Tesla could care less about controlling the connector. By having their connector standardized they just gained a huge leg up because they don't have to make any changes to their network if chargers. The other 3rd party networks do and this will force them to either up their game or go belly up.

Broken and slow chargers are no longer going to be acceptable and that's a very good thing for the EV community.

 

[Dark-Fx]

I’ve seen zero logical arguments on why NACS is bad and why the move to NACS is bad without also mentioning a specific person by name.

The iteration of the connector that currently exists in public doesn't support above 500V charging. The iteration that everyone is "moving to" hasn't even been demonstrated publicly and the claimed interoperability of the two designs is still an unknown as well.

There's also the fact that the Tesla design of integrating AC and DC on the same pins is done in a non-failsafe manner because Tesla has a habit of over-engineering things with the goal of reducing BOM cost. I will admit that Tesla knows this is a problem with their design, and it's possible they have been careful about the quality of components used here. But I am not sure I will trust every OEM to do that. (See Ford's contactor issue in the Mach-E GT)

But sure, you haven't heard any of these things before here.

 

[COdogman]

NACS is being standardized as SAE J3400. No one owns NACS. Tesla previously called this connector the Tesla charging standard, which was proprietary. That's not the case anymore. Additionally, no one has to pay to implement NACS. If you don't want to use superchargers then don't, that's how Elon will make money. You're more than welcome to keep suffering by using Electrify America and EVGo.

https://www.sae.org/standards/content/j3400/

Why can't we all be happy to get superior charging standards. The biggest gap in EV ownership between Tesla and the rest of the mfgs is charging infrastructure. This closes that gap if you so choose to use superchargers. Elon is an EV pioneer and if it wasn't for him there's a huge likelihood Rivian wouldn't be a thing either. It's not one man that created all this. It's thousands of hard working American engineers, architects, designers and laborers. Hating on the guy who funded it all is just weird.

Again, I am am fine with whatever connector the majority of people decide is superior. Tesla’s current “open source pledge” is worded so vaguely that no company has been crazy enough to take advantage of it. It is entirely up to Tesla as to whether they feel you are using their designs ” in good faith”. Even within the pledge is a threat of legal action if they decide that line has been crossed.

Elon owns about 25% of Tesla shares, but because they require a supermajority to make changes, a full 90% majority would be required to pass something without Elon’s support. So nothing happens at Tesla without his approval. He is also obviously the public face and spokesperson for the company. His role cannot be minimized.

I can agree with your point about Elon being a pioneer and acknowledge it is never just one person who builds a company, but also hold the opinion that he is a shitty human being who’s irrational behavior is now damaging the reputation of his companies. Both can be true. But I would feel the same way if any other person owned the design of the connector. I am in favor of more charging options for everyone.

Tesla started the process of standardization, but it has not been completed for whatever reason. It says on the page you linked to that it is a “work in progress”. Once that is finalized I will feel much better about it.

 

[Dark-Fx]

NACS is being standardized as SAE J3400. No one owns NACS.

That's where you're wrong. Tesla hasn't released the patent to the SAE as of yet.

 

[EVsinROC]

Came across this article in the Newyorker,
Elon Musk’s Shadow Rule | The New Yorker
and a couple of quotes stood out,

'Elon desperately wants the world to be saved. But only if he can be the one to save it.”

“Living in the world we live in, in which Elon runs this company and it is a private business under his control, we are living off his good graces,” a Pentagon official told me. “That sucks.”

“In the areas he wants to compete in, he has a very hard time sharing the spotlight, or not being the center of attention.”

And I am sure we will read more about this when the Walter Isaacson biography of Musk comes out.

This article sums up why I don't want BEV makers in North America to adopt to the Tesla charging network and keep upgrading the CCS networks, because we cannot go into a BEV reliance and give complete control and monopoly to a megalomaniac like Musk who would love nothing but the type of control he loves.

I do wish that North American regulators would push Tesla towards CCS like they did in Europe for federal funding, but short of this happening if BEV makers are going to adopt the Tesla standard, then I would like them to push Tesla to divest the Super Charger Network into it's own company, with an independant board of governors where Musk has absolutely no rights or say in it's operations or directions.

Personally, I don't understand how adopting to Tesla will fix the current issues with CCS, which is not the standard itself, but rather the integration. And this issue would absolutely be there when other BEVsstart accessing the Tesla SCs. Tesla also has to upgrade all current SC stationg to their V4s if the experience is even going to be somewhat smooth.

All of this also goes without saying, that there is absolutely no guarantee Musk would not do a complete 180 and say 'Nope, not happening', which I absolutely expect him to do.

If Elon ‘megalomaniac,’ why would he open all patents for EV’s? Look at Driver+, EXACT copy of Tesla. RJ simply follower with no creativity.

 

[DevSecOps]

That's where you're wrong. Tesla hasn't released the patent to the SAE as of yet.

All of your arguments thus far are anti-Elon talking points. You are comparing Tesla Charging Standard to NACS (J3400). They are not one in the same. J3400 will be the SAE standard that companies like Rivian will adopt. The agreements between Rivian and Tesla are for use of the superchargers, not for use of NACS. Once J3400 is an SAE standard it will not be proprietary at all. No one will own J3400 (NACS) (cited).

Likewise, your 500v argument is in regards to the Tesla Charging Standard. It's been widely publicized that the J3400 standard will be 1MW capable, which is twice that of CCS.

No one is adopting the Tesla Charging Standard, they will be adopting the SAE standard. Until the SAE standard is finalized it's weird to say what it won't do without any basis.

 

[brancky3]

If Elon ‘megalomaniac,’ why would he open all patents for EV’s? Look at Driver+, EXACT copy of Tesla. RJ simply follower with no creativity.

How is Driver+ an exact copy?

1. It uses radar for cruise control, not cameras (positive)
2. It senses grip on the steering wheel, not torque (positive)
3. It uses pre-mapped highway routes for lane centering, not real-time camera feedback (negative)

 

[EVsinROC]

How is Driver+ an exact copy?

1. It uses radar for cruise control, not cameras (positive)
2. It senses grip on the steering wheel, not torque (positive)
3. It uses pre-mapped highway routes for lane centering, not real-time camera feedback (negative)

agreed to exact in sophistication and/or capabilitiesook at GUI, see and similarities?

Tesla moved on from radar to more advanced RT-T camera, Tesla engineers who left for Riv are behind on this.

what is ‘grip’? Change volume on scroll wheel just as easy.

pre-Mapped sounds like legacy auto solution.

 

[DevSecOps]

I can agree with your point about Elon being a pioneer and acknowledge it is never just one person who builds a company, but also hold the opinion that he is a shitty human being who’s irrational behavior is now damaging the reputation of his companies. Both can be true.

This is where you loose me. Personally, I could care less who owns a company or what they say online. I think it's weird to bash some random person who you don't know. 50% or more of the population has no issue with Elon. There's also a portion that idolizes him. I would rather look at the numbers, not the anti-elon echo chamber on these forums as to the "damage" he's causing to his company. Tesla is on track to sell 134% more vehicles YoY vs 2022. That doesn't appear to be too damaging to me. I would never consider the CEO of a company when purchasing something, I just don't subscribe to that thought process. In my opinion, you're just poisoning your own health by focusing on one man so much, but to each their own.

Tesla started the process of standardization, but it has not been completed for whatever reason. It says on the page you linked to that it is a “work in progress”. Once that is finalized I will feel much better about it.

Yes it is still a work in progress. Companies will be adopting J3400 when it's finalized, which is said to be by year end. Here's more information.

 

[manitou202]

I do have concerns that Elon could start a cable company like battle with another automaker. He gets into a fight with Rivian for example, and cuts their access to the network. Just like cable companies do with rights to various channels.

I'm mixed on government regulation, but this might be a time that they step in and require all charging companies to be open to all automobiles. No private networks. Maybe networks can offer subscription discounts similar to what gas stations do with credit cards or reward memberships. But no favoritism to any specific brands. Make them neutral.

 

[ohseedee]

The iteration of the connector that currently exists in public doesn't support above 500V charging. The iteration that everyone is "moving to" hasn't even been demonstrated publicly and the claimed interoperability of the two designs is still an unknown as well.

There's also the fact that the Tesla design of integrating AC and DC on the same pins is done in a non-failsafe manner because Tesla has a habit of over-engineering things with the goal of reducing BOM cost. I will admit that Tesla knows this is a problem with their design, and it's possible they have been careful about the quality of components used here. But I am not sure I will trust every OEM to do that. (See Ford's contactor issue in the Mach-E GT)

But sure, you haven't heard any of these things before here.

Thanks. This is a logical argument. It’s based on actual real things that can actually be discussed.

I frankly find it boring having a EV debate centered around our opinions of a human. I’d find it much more interesting discussing the technical nature of the standards and the potential pros/cons of going one way vs another. Those can actually be debated. When people start with hyper charged personal attacks on a human a real discussion can’t even begin.

I think the blu-ray vs HD DVD analogy is a good one. I remember doing research on the standard, reading opinions, and personally deciding HD DVD was better (I also bought and still have the Xbox 360 HD DVD drive). I can’t recall anyone making an argument centered around Sony’s CEO.

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