Very disappointing snow experience

[05soxfan]

Thank you sir. The pucks are pucks specific to the R1s for jacking?

Yes

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[mwexler2]

Whew. I am not sure how else to put this to help you.

Okay, let me try this. Let's take my 20-year-old Jeep off-roader. Now, let's put this 20-year-old Jeep off-roader on an off-camber road that is iced over. Let's make sure that this off-camber iced over road is extremely slippery.

Now, let's take a traditional open differential, without any traction control or locking mechanisms in place. It is common knowledge that when you apply power to this type of system, only one wheel will spin. Why? It's an open differential. Torque will move to the side with the least resistance. The vehicle has no knowledge of how slippery the road is, and doesn't even know what "friction coefficient" means. It simply will spin the wheel with least resistance. Because of that, the opposite wheel does not slip, and will maintain its coefficient of friction to keep the vehicle from moving sideways. Once again, the vehicle has no way of knowing that the road is slippery, that is simply how the technology works.

A quad motor system has no connection between the wheels and does not share torque. For this reason, it must depend on sensors in each wheel to monitor torque, wheel speed and use traction control. It has no native torque vectoring the way a differential does. It must simulate torque vectoring based on a computer algorithm. Because of this, there is never really a dead wheel the way the common, old-fashioned differential has always worked.

The result? If torque is applied to both rear wheels, the rear will simply slip out. If you are in an off camber situation, you will move toward the ditch or the trees or whatever is downhill from you.

Does that help?

It does. I wonder if a future version of Rivian software could use a tilt sensor combined with snow mode and when tilt > TK then send power only to wheels on the upward slope. This could be near instantaneous and not require that the downward wheels slip first.

 

[SoCal Rob]

It does. I wonder if a future version of Rivian software could use a tilt sensor combined with snow mode and when tilt > TK then send power only to wheels on the upward slope. This could be near instantaneous and not require that the downward wheels slip first.

@R.I.P. If you’re going up a hill and you only want to apply power to the front wheels, what happens if you switch to Conserve? Would that make things better (no power to rear wheels) or worse if Conserve cannot be used in conjunction with Snow Mode?

I moved away from snow 25 years ago and my concerns are soft sand and rock crawling so this doesn’t affect me but I am curious.

 

[R.I.P.]

@R.I.P. If you’re going up a hill and you only want to apply power to the front wheels, what happens if you switch to Conserve? Would that make things better (no power to rear wheels) or worse if Conserve cannot be used in conjunction with Snow Mode?

I moved away from snow 25 years ago and my concerns are soft sand and rock crawling so this doesn’t affect me but I am curious.

When going up a hill, the majority of the vehicles' weight is on the rear axle. Sending power to only the front wheels is going to cause it to scramble and slip a lot. Kind of like a Prius trying to go up a steep gravel road. Not terribly effective.

Going straight up a hill is not something that the R1T usually has any trouble with. It is off camber slippery stuff that tends to overwhelm it.

 

[Tbirdjeff]

What were you thinking of, no snow mode and no snow tires? Not wise decision.

such wise counsel. thanks for stating the obvious. I share the experience on this forum b/c it would seem like a place to share both good and bad. No value add in your reply. There were others that explained the unique scenarios - snow tires or not - that were very helpful. To be clear, ALL of us had no snow mode before a few days ago so we all were out there in the snow regardless of the tires without snow mode.

I did update while at Snowbird and had snow mode going down and it did make a huge difference in various depths of snow, from 8-10" to just slush. I had no issues with traction outside of the obvious on non-snow tires.

 

[Tbirdjeff]

Just curious, why haven’t you updated to the newest software yet, knowing it had snow mode and you live in a snowy area? I do agree snow tires still maybe the best help.

It actually hadn't shown up as an update literally until that morning while driving. I had tried to find a way to push, but the truck had no indication that there was an update available. I don't know why it took time for it to see the new OTA option.

 

[Tbirdjeff]

The quad motor design has some benefits, but tends to perform very poorly in very slippery situations. With a traditional differential design, it allows one wheel on the differential to attempt forward motion, while taking torque away from the other to maintain lateral stability. With no connection between the wheels (the differential), the tendency is for both Wheels on the axle to slip on a quad motor Rivian. This will send you sideways.

The new snow mode seems to be a lot better, but because of the design, it will never be as good as having a differential. Because my use case does involve a lot of snow and ice, I never ordered a Rivian until they offered the dual motor variant, exactly for this reason.

Most helpful reply of any. Very good insight into the differential design impact. Thx for sharing.

 

[Tbirdjeff]

I don't know about you, but my R1T made it up to and around Alta just fine the other day. I live in PC and have cruised up and down snow covered roads with no problems in my R1T this season, but I am running 20" ATs and probably in the 99th percentile in terms of Utah snow driving experience. I am not familiar with the tires on the 22s but I'm guessing you did not think this one through as 22s will limit your tire options substantially and they will be absolutely impossible to air down for traction and I suspect the stiff sidewalls in the 22" tires could be a reason the traction is relatively worse. Snow mode isn't going to fix that as there is literally nothing special about snow mode. It is just a lower level regen standard. You can go to "all-purpose" and simply select "low" in regen and you get the same thing.

I have tried to hoon my R1T in a snowy parking lot with stability control on and off and it is not easy. I have been up and down LCC and BCC in all kinds of conditions and there are situations where snow tires are necessary if you want to maintain a certain speed but I have never seen any condition where snow tires were required by an AWD or 4x4 in Utah in my nearly million miles of experience on these roads. If you think 8-9 mph is too fast then you really have not experienced the full gamut of snow conditions in Utah. I could go on and on, but there are scenarios where you can literally drive only 2-5 mph in absolute white out conditions on unplowed roads.

It sounds like the rain to snow likely caused some ice to form and the rain will wash off the salt so I wouldn't necessarily blame the tires, but even 8-9 mph can be "too fast" depending on conditions. I would not use the speed of other drivers to judge how fast you should be going. 90+% of Utah drivers are not very savvy. I literally passed 200+ vehicles going up Parley's today in the right lane behind a semi this Tuesday evening.

I wouldn't be so hasty to move to snow tires. In the past I had a fleet of winter vehicles and my favorite tire was the Yokohama YK580 all seasons that Discount Tire would mechanically sipe for increased winter grip. It lasted forever and performed about as well as most winter tires without the noise. You might want to consider just getting a set of 20" wheels with the off road tires instead of buying winter 22s which I personally think is pretty ridiculous. I just made it to Moab from PC with no charging stops so the range has been decent on the ATs.

Just a side note here, I once stood at the bottom of Michael Jordan's driveway in Park City watching an entire crew of valets desperately changing a flat on someone's Range Rover with 22" or 23" wheels. That wheel size generally speaking just isn't the most reliable option and will flat in all types of mundane circumstances. That being said I have also flatted a variety of all season and AT tires in various mundane circumstances.

Thanks for the detail and ideas. I grew up in Utah driving on pretty much everything (crappy subaru hatchback to trucks), oftentimes with no snow tires. I have had 5 Jeeps and have driven those with snow tires and without and never had a situation like I did as described. On my R1T, I have had no issues on many trips up to Snowbasin with the existing tires - up and down. I do believe the conditions were pretty unique that day - it was raining at the mouth of the canyon and it turned to slush 1/2 way up. The sliding occurred at about 7,500 feet and above. My comment about the 8mph was not a concern that I needed to faster, but rather that, for the first time, I couldn't really try to override the truck with another technique. It literally felt like there was no response. I couldn't feel any excess slip. The truck just felt like I was sensing the slip and avoiding it by not going at all. I later drove around the VERY deep snow in the parking lot with zero issue at all. I could rev it and get tire slip on purpose, but nothing like what I had for a few mins on the road earlier.

My original plan with the 22" was based on looks, as I wanted those. I actually like the 20" AT look better, but having never seen them in person before I got mine, I didn't know. So yes, I have regretted that decision but not b/c of snow. Then, winter came, and I had pretty good performance despite no snow tires and my original plan to get another set (just like I do on my Jeep Grand Cherokee) and swap them out each winter went on pause. I do plan to get 20s/off road tires, as I have taken this to Moab a few times as well, and I also don't want to use these 22s there any more.

 

[87Ducks]

I have just received my purchase email and had similar concerns. I was waiting for the Max Pack but for the added range but that doesn't look promising. My plan is to go with the 21" road tires for the range and just purchase dedicated snow tires locally for winter change over rather than order another set from Rivian. I live in Central Oregon where the freeze/thaw cycle can make the roads extremely slick with hard packed glazy snow.
What have others done?

 

[R.I.P.]

I have just received my purchase email and had similar concerns. I was waiting for the Max Pack but for the added range but that doesn't look promising. My plan is to go with the 21" road tires for the range and just purchase dedicated snow tires locally for winter change over rather than order another set from Rivian. I live in Central Oregon where the freeze/thaw cycle can make the roads extremely slick with hard packed glazy snow.
What have others done?

Greetings fellow Oregonian.
?
For your use case, I would certainly suggest the dual motor variant, it is what I intend to order when my turn comes around.
?

 

[87Ducks]

Greetings fellow Oregonian.
?
For your use case, I would certainly suggest the dual motor variant, it is what I intend to order when my turn comes around.
?

I would consider it if it were coming out this year but I have waited long enough.

 

[windblowlc]

such wise counsel. thanks for stating the obvious. I share the experience on this forum b/c it would seem like a place to share both good and bad. No value add in your reply. There were others that explained the unique scenarios - snow tires or not - that were very helpful. To be clear, ALL of us had no snow mode before a few days ago so we all were out there in the snow regardless of the tires without snow mode.

I did update while at Snowbird and had snow mode going down and it did make a huge difference in various depths of snow, from 8-10" to just slush. I had no issues with traction outside of the obvious on non-snow tires.

My comment was stating the obvious - the value added was so that others can learn from and not make the same mistake you did. You had 22" all season tires trying to move/stop a 7200 lbs EV with high enough regen and no snow mode up and down snow country. While most people had trouble controlling their Rivians before snow mode came out, they were begging for it to be available or were scrambling to put on a set of snow tires. You had plenty of time to do either but chose not to until you experienced it yourself. Good thing it was not too late.

 

[Tbirdjeff]

My comment was stating the obvious - the value added was so that others can learn from and not make the same mistake you did. You had 22" all season tires trying to move/stop a 7200 lbs EV with high enough regen and no snow mode up and down snow country. While most people had trouble controlling their Rivians before snow mode came out, they were begging for it to be available or were scrambling to put on a set of snow tires. You had plenty of time to do either but chose not to until you experienced it yourself. Good thing it was not too late.

Wrong. I have had plenty of experience in the snow with great results. And I didn't have an option for snow mode - never got the OTA notice until that very morning.

 

[windblowlc]

Wrong. I have had plenty of experience in the snow with great results. And I didn't have time for snow mode - never got the OTA notice until that very morning.

From your original post -

... I decided to put it in Sand mode as none of the other modes seemed to help, as I hadn't updated the software to have access to a Snow mode yet. I barely made it to snowbird. Yes, i don't have dedicated snow tires and I am sure I will get a lot of "duh" comments saying they aren't meant for snow and they are also 22" but it is disappointing performance regardless...

Time to bite the bullet for snow tires.

How am I wrong when these are the fact...
1. Snow mode was widely available over a month ago since the beginning of December '22.
2. Rivian 22" all season tires were meant for light snow only.

 

[WSea]

From your original post -


How am I wrong when these are the fact...
1. Snow mode was widely available over a month ago since the beginning of December '22.
2. Rivian 22" all season tires were meant for light snow only.

Give the guy a break! And you are wrong. My snow mode update was pushed on December 21st

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