Right to Repair

[White Shadow]

This is starting to become a big issue across the entire car industry. Manufacturers are now putting next generation Secure Gateways to protect their CAN-BUS systems that require a code from the manufacturer to grant access for just 24 hours. If you have the proper hardware, software, and knowledge, only then will you be able to do anything beyond the most basic of repairs.

So technically, it is possible to repair these vehicles on your own, but they make it practically impossible for the vast majority of DIY guys.

On my Jeep for example, right now I can deflate, repair, refill, and calibrate the air suspension system using an app on my phone or tablet and an inexpensive plug-in module that bypasses the first generation Security Gateway. On the newest Jeeps, it's not possible yet and looks like it may never be without buying a very expensive scan tool, a subscription for the software to control it, and then hope that I can get temporary access via a code to get past the Security Gateway. It's unclear if the software package will include an annual membership to get past the Security Gateway, so I guess time will tell. But in the meantime, they're making it virtually impossible for the DIY crowd to do any of this type of work.

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[riv-e-in]

Bringing the two threads together… ?

https://www.rivianforums.com/forum/threads/cost-of-ownership-parts-and-right-to-repair.38653/page-3

 

[Jeep Addict]

I support the right to repair. This issue is not as simple as it would seem. Manufacturers are strictly liable for their products, strict liability being a legal concept that makes manufacturers responsible for bad things that happen to consumers regardless of who was negligent or at fault.

This legal principal makes manufacturers "pucker" at the prospect of someone repairing a product and some getting injured or killed and them being named as a defendant in a lawsuit. It's plenty risky as it is, add thousands of well intentioned folks with varying levels of knowledge and skill, and the risk gets much riskier.

I can imagine a lawsuit using @White Shadow 's post, suing Stellantis for not implementing stronger network security to prevent CANBUS injection thefts on earlier models. The manufacturers' response is to restrict access, monetize it, time and resources aren't free.

Of course this oversimplification is just one part of the reason manufacturers are concerned about giving everyone access to everything. Another is the revenue streams from repairs is big money.

That being said you may get the right to repair, but the manufacturer still has the right to charge you princely sums to get the stuff you need and put up paywalls and tall hurdles along the way. There's a sensible middle somewhere that includes being able to buy a fastener for your tailgate.

 

[NY_Rob]

Passenger:

Driver:

Here ya go
Driver:

Passenger:

Yeah, I know about those diagrams, now show me where Rivian has officially released those for free for all owners to access, like you know.. other auto makers do in their owners manual.

 

[HaveBlue]

Yeah, I know about those diagrams, now show me where Rivian has officially released those for free for all owners to access, like you know.. other auto makers do in their owners manual.

Remind me not to give you something when you ask for it...

 

[Rivianero]

Remind me not to give you something when you ask for it...

FWIW, I very much appreciated them.

 

[beatle]

I support the right to repair. This issue is not as simple as it would seem. Manufacturers are strictly liable for their products, strict liability being a legal concept that makes manufacturers responsible for bad things that happen to consumers regardless of who was negligent or at fault.

This legal principal makes manufacturers "pucker" at the prospect of someone repairing a product and some getting injured or killed and them being named as a defendant in a lawsuit. It's plenty risky as it is, add thousands of well intentioned folks with varying levels of knowledge and skill, and the risk gets much riskier.

I can imagine a lawsuit using @White Shadow 's post, suing Stellantis for not implementing stronger network security to prevent CANBUS injection thefts on earlier models. The manufacturers' response is to restrict access, monetize it, time and resources aren't free.

This sounds more like it was written by a manufacturer. I don't think any of them genuinely care about someone getting injured as a result of a shoddy repair. No manufacturer really cares about that, or has probably ever. When you choose to undertake a repair on your own, you're on your own. I've injured myself countless times while wrenching on a vehicle and I've never once thought "Mazda/Toyota/Honda/Yamaha/Triumph is going to pay for this."

Paraphrasing myself from another thread, repairs are only dangerous or impossible if you're flying blind without any way to diagnose the issue, or if you're using some kind of hack fix since parts are not available. If you just want to fix something with original parts, it should be straightforward. The technicians are not daredevils or doctors, and they replace parts every day by just following the instructions and pulling parts off the shelf. We should be able to do this ourselves. The manufacturers' desire to maintain control is rooted in their goal to pad their bottom line, not protecting the owners.

 

[NY_Rob]

Remind me not to give you something when you ask for it...

Only if you remind me to not ask you for something first ?

LOL.. I reposted those diagrams over 2 yrs ago when they were first leaked on Reddit (IIRC) then posted here. We were all semi-joking that we need to quickly save those images to our own computer's before Rivian has them taken down like they have for other photos posted here.

None of that changes the fact that something as common as a fuse box diagram is considered "proprietary information" by Rivian. We are discussing Right to Repair in this thread after all. FWIW- when the owner who asked Rivian for the fuse box diagram was told no they would not give him that information, Rivian told him to schedule a Service Appointment and Rivian will replace the fuse for him (he blew the fuse when trying to wire up his trailer lights).

 

[AJBessinger]

I own an EV repair shop in Portland OR (WattWorks), and just signed up for Rivian's service partner program, so I now have access to the parts catalog for R1S, R1T and EDV. However, they do restrict sales of all HV system parts to only certified body and calibration shops. This is a bit of a shame since it locks out parts availability to shops that focus purely on mechanical/electrical repairs (like mine).

They do have service subscriptions for RiDE, and service manual access, though they are very expensive. I have found some "workarounds" to get access to the service data (assuming Rivian doesn't patch them), but the diagnostic software is still inaccessible without a $5,500/yr subscription.

At this time, I don't think it's worth it for my business to eat the cost of the subscription given that the vast majority of Rivians are still under warranty, and I don't yet have a customer demand for working on them, but more will be coming off warranty over the next few years.

I can only hope that Rivian begins to give greater support for repairability like Tesla has done over the last couple years. For those not in the know, all Tesla service manuals and other service related documents are available to anyone for free, and the parts catalog is available for pretty much anyone to create an account and make online orders. Most parts are available over-the-counter as well, though in my experience some Service Centers can be a bit "difficult" to deal with in that regard... Diagnostic software (Toolbox 3) is also available as a relatively inexpensive subscription at $700/yr, $150/mo, or $75/day.

 

[NY_Rob]

^ good for you Alex, I hope your business flourishes going forward!

For out of warranty work, I for one would much rather bring my vehicle to a local shop where I can talk to the owner and mechanics who have real world troubleshooting experience vs corporate Service Centers who employ parts hangers who just keep replacing parts (on our dime) till the problem is "fixed".

Best of luck to you!!

 

[AJBessinger]

^ good for you Alex, I hope your business flourishes going forward!

For out of warranty work, I for one would much rather bring my vehicle to a local shop where I can talk to the owner and mechanics who have real world troubleshooting experience vs corporate Service Centers who employ parts hangers who just keep replacing parts (on our dime) till the problem is "fixed".

Best of luck to you!!

Thanks! That's my goal is to provide quality and economical troubleshooting and repairs to EV owners. Unfortunately a lot of the time service center/dealer techs are basically just parts changers that just follow a diagnostic tree, and don't perform actual repairs to component assemblies. Just recently I had a car in that the dealer "diagnosed" and quoted ~$8k to put a motor into. I was fully expecting to install a $500 used motor from a salvage yard, but when the car arrived and I looked at it, it turned out the issue was just a broken wire at the connector for the stator temp sensor.

I regularly perform drive unit rebuilds and open-pack repairs on all sorts of out of warranty EVs (Nissan LEAF, Fiat 500e, Toyota RAV4 EV, all the Tesla models, etc.). In cases where a complete assembly needs to be replaced, often low mileage used parts can be sourced for a fraction of the cost from an auto dismantler. And of course for some "basic" parts, sometimes aftermarket/reman options are also available.

 

[NY_Rob]

Thanks! That's my goal is to provide quality and economical troubleshooting and repairs to EV owners. Unfortunately a lot of the time service center/dealer techs are basically just parts changers that just follow a diagnostic tree, and don't perform actual repairs to component assemblies. Just recently I had a car in that the dealer "diagnosed" and quoted ~$8k to put a motor into. I was fully expecting to install a $500 used motor from a salvage yard, but when the car arrived and I looked at it, it turned out the issue was just a broken wire at the connector for the stator temp sensor.

I regularly perform drive unit rebuilds and open-pack repairs on all sorts of out of warranty EVs (Nissan LEAF, Fiat 500e, Toyota RAV4 EV, all the Tesla models, etc.). In cases where a complete assembly needs to be replaced, often low mileage used parts can be sourced for a fraction of the cost from an auto dismantler. And of course for some "basic" parts, sometimes aftermarket/reman options are also available.

That's all because you guys are actual mechanics who can troubleshoot using common sense and proper factory provided docs. You are the new breed!

 

[Riviot]

Thanks! That's my goal is to provide quality and economical troubleshooting and repairs to EV owners. Unfortunately a lot of the time service center/dealer techs are basically just parts changers that just follow a diagnostic tree, and don't perform actual repairs to component assemblies. Just recently I had a car in that the dealer "diagnosed" and quoted ~$8k to put a motor into. I was fully expecting to install a $500 used motor from a salvage yard, but when the car arrived and I looked at it, it turned out the issue was just a broken wire at the connector for the stator temp sensor.

I regularly perform drive unit rebuilds and open-pack repairs on all sorts of out of warranty EVs (Nissan LEAF, Fiat 500e, Toyota RAV4 EV, all the Tesla models, etc.). In cases where a complete assembly needs to be replaced, often low mileage used parts can be sourced for a fraction of the cost from an auto dismantler. And of course for some "basic" parts, sometimes aftermarket/reman options are also available.

Would you work on a Rivian with suspension issues? Asking for a friend.

 

[AJBessinger]

Would you work on a Rivian with suspension issues? Asking for a friend.

My shop's main focus is on powertrain and HV system repair. I certainly could swap out suspension components, but I'm not equipped to handle alignments, so it would have to go somewhere else after the fact to have that done.

 

[Pachycephalodad]

Here you go. https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/nkcn...6-23.pdf?rlkey=8f5cy6yuawwt81b2y57i60pj1&dl=0


Rivian is currently developing a service information website to support independent service providers and vehicle owners. In the meantime, for third-party service providers, please contact [email protected] for repair, maintenance and service parts information. For R1 owners seeking service support, please contact the Rivian Service Support Team at (855) 748-4265.

Got any more of them....files? I've had pretty much my entire rear seat, trim, and headliner removed to fix an annoying rattle. I got it fixed, but it was slow going. A service manual for the interior would have been a godsend.

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