20" tire recommendations

[ksurfier]

I've pretty much narrowed down to as3 or grabber after reading everything here and in that Google doc. Again, if you are looking at meeting or beating the 21" efficiency numbers. It could always be wash between the two since one is thinner but heavier. Which of course should make the choice of the AS3 the winner due to the much longer life.


I'm just really surprised that the AS3 isn't *that* much more efficient than the 21" based on my knowledge of the Tesla difference between their 19" and 21". But of course that's 2" vs 1" and a very considerable difference in width/compound.

UPDATED TO ADD TERRAINCONTACT H/T OPTION: SCORES HIGHEST SINCE IT IS CLOSEST TO 20" OEM PARAMETERS, BUT BETTER UTQG (720), ALSO THE HIGHEST SCORING TIRE RACK TESTS. EFFICIENCY UNKNOWN.

It's not very clear, there are so many factors/variables for efficiency (most important being speed and weather)...we really need to get 8-9 Rivians to meet up with OEM, Defender LTX, Grabber HTS60, and Pirelli AS+3 and test, even that will not be accurate unless all the tires have the same mileage (tires can become 20% more efficient as tread wears out)...here's all the data that I have, hopefully LL75 will get some good data to add...

TIRE	Subjective Score	Warranty	mi/kwh	Cost per Tire	Cost per 1000 Miles (incl $0.5 per kwh)	Snow
TerrainCntct	7	70k	unkn (2.3?)	$ 259.00	$ 41 ($257)	~9/10
AS+3	6	70k	2.4 - 2.8 (JJE)	$ 273.00	$ 40 ($240)	~8/10
Defender LTX	3	70k	2.3 - 2.7 (estimate)	$ 301.99	$ 44 ($260)	~9/10
Grabber	3	65k	2.5 - tbd	$ 211.99	$ 47 ($255)	~8/10
OEM 20"	2	50k	2.2	$ 450.00	$ 79 ($306)	~8/10
Est. Milage	UTQG	Speed	Tread-W	Tread-D	Weight	Max PSI
32,000	TerrainCntct (720 A A)	130	8.9"	12/32	44	51
30,000	AS+3 (800 A A)	130	8.3"	11/32	38	51
35,000	Defend (820 B A)	130	7.8"	11/32	39	50
20,000	Grab (620 A B)	118	8.6"	10/32	34	51
25,000	OEM (640 A B)	130	9.1"	13/32	48	51

If the Grabber efficiency is on par with the AS+3 then I think I'd take it since tread width is wider. That protects the rims from curb rash (a good reason to stick with OEM size - insurance for the rims).

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[jemkewl]

From reports here I've noticed the following general relationship between tire weight and efficiency:

3.0 mi/kw for 30# (max range of 380 miles) Theoretical - No tires available this lightweight

2.6 mi/kw for 35# (max range of 330 miles) General Grabber HTS60 275/60R20 (LOW UTQG) [22.3; 19+3.3]

2.4 mi/kw for 40# (max range of 305 miles) Pirrelli AS3+ 275/60R20; Defender LTX M/S2 [23.6; 21+2.6]

2.2 mi/kw for 45# (max range of 280 miles) Pirrelli OEM scorpion 275/65R20 [27.4; 23+4.4]

2.0 mi/kw for 50# (max range of 250 miles) no data for this range; (possibly: DUELER A/T REVO 3 or DESTINATION X/T)

1.8 mi/kw for 55# (max range of 230 miles) BFG KO2 275/60R20 [33; 28+5]

1.6 mi/kw for 60# (max range of 200 miles) Nitto Recon Grappler 275/65R20

Here are sources:
2.86 mi/kw (366.5 miles/128 kwh) General Grabber HTS60 (34.0 pounds)
2.63 mi/kw (99.5 miles/37.8 kwh) Pirrelli AS3+ (38.0 Pounds), User JJE dated 2/23/2023
" I switched to Scorpion AS on the 20 inch wheels and consistently get over 2.5 on average in AP mode. On the highway in Conserve, between 2.6 and 2.8 at 70 mph. "

All Purpose: 2.5 mi/kw (290.3 miles/128.4 kwh) Pirrelli AS3+ (38.0 Pounds), User anthonysfl dated 10/11/2023
Conserve: 2.93 mi/kw (343.3 miles/130.6 kwh) Pirrelli AS3+ (38.0 Pounds), User anthonysfl dated 10/11/2023

Appreciate the summary - the as3+ only come in a 115 VS 116 rating, correct?

Should be a comparison between the 3:
https://www.tirerack.com/tires/Comp...=&sortCode=60065&rearSortCode=&tireIndex=null

 

[ksurfier]

that’s correct

 

[EarlyAdptr]

It's not very clear, there are so many factors/variables for efficiency (most important being speed and weather)...we really need to get 8-9 Rivians to meet up with OEM, Defender LTX, Grabber HTS60, and Pirelli AS+3 and test, even that will not be accurate unless all the tires have the same mileage (tires can become 20% more efficient as tread wears out)...here's all the data that I have, hopefully LL75 will get some good data to add...

TIRE	Subjective Score	Warranty	mi/kwh	Cost per Tire	Cost per 1000 Miles (incl $0.5 per kwh)	Snow
AS+3	6	70k	2.4 - 2.8 (JJE)	$ 273.00	$ 40 ($240)	~8/10
Defender LTX	3	70k	2.3 - 2.7 (estimate)	$ 301.99	$ 44 ($260)	~9/10
Grabber	3	65k	2.5 - tbd	$ 211.99	$ 47 ($255)	~8/10
OEM 20"	2	50k	2.2	$ 450.00	$ 79 ($306)	~8/10
Est. Milage	UTQG	Speed	Tread-W	Tread-D	Weight	Max PSI
30,000	AS+3 (800 A A)	130	8.3"	11/32	38	51
35,000	Defend (820 B A)	130	7.8"	11/32	39	50
20,000	Grab (620 A B)	118	8.6"	10/32	34	51
25,000	OEM (640 A B)	130	9.1"	13/32	48	51

If the Grabber efficiency is on par with the AS+3 then I think I'd take it since tread width is wider. That protects the rims from curb rash (a good reason to stick with OEM size - insurance for the rims).

Thanks for this. The "Defender LTX" - is that the LTX Platinum, LTX M/S 2, or LTX A/T 2 that you're referencing? Looks like the pricing of the M/S 2.

I'm wondering about the Michelin Defender LTX A/T 2 275 60-R20 (116H / XL). Anyone opt for those? Efficiency results?

 

[ksurfier]

It’s essentially the M/S and M/S2 where results for either exist. Sounds like efficiency went down slightly for the newest version (nothing official). Not sure about the one you mentioned, I don’t pay any attention to >50# tires, most of them only get 1.6 mi/kwh (and $$$), there may be 1-2 that can get 1.9-2.0 mi/kwh. But unless you are towing/off-roading it’s a complete waste of efficiency and more importantly range…
The platinum is a glorified summer tire, the only review on tire rack is someone that returned it due to extremely poor snow performance…

 

[LL75]

Thanks for this. The "Defender LTX" - is that the LTX Platinum, LTX M/S 2, or LTX A/T 2 that you're referencing? Looks like the pricing of the M/S 2.

I'm wondering about the Michelin Defender LTX A/T 2 275 60-R20 (116H / XL). Anyone opt for those? Efficiency results?

@kurtlikevonnegut is currenty using the defender LTX m2/2 275/60/20.

 

[krikiter]

I just went through this exercise with my R1T. I also didn't really need A/T tires, so I went with the Michelin Agilis CrossClimate at Discount Tire. Very happy so far. Much smoother and quieter. Rides better and handles better. Good snow traction.

 

[Discount Tire]

I just went through this exercise with my R1T. I also didn't really need A/T tires, so I went with the Michelin Agilis CrossClimate at Discount Tire. Very happy so far. Much smoother and quieter. Rides better and handles better. Good snow traction.

Thank you for the opportunity to earn your business! Looking forward to hearing how the Michelins perform for you over time! Thanks for sharing.

 

[ksurfier]

I just went through this exercise with my R1T. I also didn't really need A/T tires, so I went with the Michelin Agilis CrossClimate at Discount Tire. Very happy so far. Much smoother and quieter. Rides better and handles better. Good snow traction.

How is the efficiency looking? Is it LT 80 psi, if so what psi are you running at?

 

[krikiter]

How is the efficiency looking? Is it LT 80 psi, if so what psi are you running at?

I run at 48psi. I've seen a modest improvement, somewhere between 5-10%.

 

[ksurfier]

I think you might be robbing yourself of 10-20% efficiency due to low tire pressure.

you should try 60-65 psi and do a 15 minute drive under same conditions and compare to 48 psi. Contact patch plays a role in efficiency. At 48 psi, CP per wheel is roughly 6”x6”. At 65 psi, CP per wheel is closer to 5x5”.
Minimum safe psi is between 50 - 60 psi, depending on load. Once you go to an LT tire the pressure on the door (48) no longer applies…general rule is to increase by at least 5 psi, so 53 might be a good minimum pressure for 80 psi/3750 # tires.

 

[MrTopher]

Just placed an order for 275/60 with a load rating of 115 the Dynapro AT3 Xtreme, they couldn't get the 119. I'll be safe on the 115, right?
If the tire is on the Google Doc, it's compatible, right?

 

[ksurfier]

No issues that I know of, check thread here for more details:

https://www.rivianforums.com/forum/threads/hello-from-discount-tire.23040/page-13

Plain and simple, if you are going to be towing/offroading then you prob. will want a 119+ load rating tire, for those that stay will under the 8500 max weight a 115 load rating is more than sufficient. I would consider towing only with 116 and higher rated tires for a number of reasons, even 116 is borderline (would need to likely tow no more than 4-5k pounds and then would need to make sure to subtract 500# tongue weight from the total load, resulting in only $1,000 pounds for people and cargo. That likely means that 2 adults and 2 kids plus gear is max capacity if towing).

...sounds like Discount Tire lets 115 slide even though 116 is recommended. Fully loaded, the vehicles need tires with a load rating of at least 2,550 # including the 20% safety factor. If not fully loaded then they only need around 2,400 # including a 20% safety factor and max passenger weight of ~1,000 #. That gives a range of Load Indexes between 111 and 113. This means that 114 and 115 load ratings should be fine, as long as psi rating is above 50...
96% (48 psi) for the 114 load tire is 2,496 pounds, so it's right on the margin and likely should be avoided.
96% (48 psi) for the 115 load tire is 2,571 pounds, so it's 21 pounds more than needed if the vehicle was at full capacity. It's possible that Rivian feels more comfortable having 116 load be the minimum since in theory it would allow an excess load of almost 400 pounds (95 per wheel)....

I would be concerned about running 114 and below, but 115 and above allow a generous safety factor of 20% plus an additional load of ~40 pounds beyond what Rivian states as max load...
At the end of the day, a 115 load tire has a pretty small margin of error for exceeding Rivian's max load of 8532#, it's likely for this reason they suggest using 116 (allows for excess weight of almost 300# before there might be heat-related issues with the tires.).

 

[EarlyAdptr]

Really attracted to idea of alternate AS tires for 20" wheel. I am NOT tire knowledgable, so i'm checking my understanding after reading all of these posts. Seems to me higher range will most likely come by going to to a non-standard 275-60-R20 (vs OEM 275-65-R20). Doing that potentially carries a few complications:
1) larger chain stores like DT won't install these non-OEM-size tires - but smaller / local stores will
2) the inflatable spare (in the R1S) will no longer be usable - different size
3) The chain stores like DT "WILL rotate" the non-OEM-size tires after being installed.
4) claiming "credit" under a manufacturer warranty program will be more challenging

Am i correct in any / all of those assumptions? None of them?

Thanks so much!

 

[jemkewl]

Really attracted to idea of alternate AS tires for 20" wheel. I am NOT tire knowledgable, so i'm checking my understanding after reading all of these posts. Seems to me higher range will most likely come by going to to a non-standard 275-60-R20 (vs OEM 275-65-R20). Doing that potentially carries a few complications:
1) larger chain stores like DT won't install these non-OEM-size tires - but smaller / local stores will
2) the inflatable spare (in the R1S) will no longer be usable - different size
3) The chain stores like DT "WILL rotate" the non-OEM-size tires after being installed.
4) claiming "credit" under a manufacturer warranty program will be more challenging

Am i correct in any / all of those assumptions? None of them?

Thanks so much!

Have stock 21s on r1t. Going to aftermarket 20s. Went to Costco and purchased 275/60r20 with them. They were good with the order, but did ask why not the 275/65. Good conversation with them. First time buying tires at Costco as I usually get my tires from a great local shop.

Rotation is free with Costco (via appointment).

Time will tell, but seems this one Costco story may provide some answers to the questions posed.

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