Can Tesla Keep Rivian Out

[jbowen52]

If the news reports are correct that Tesla has made there charging system open sourced, then it will allow all other charging systems to adopt the NACS plug. In future you would never have to use the Tesla Supercharger system. Being able to use it would sure be a nice feature to have. More charging stations is always better.

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[RivAW]

Now that GM and Ford are transitioning to NACS and Elon is allowing them to use Tesla’s supercharger network can Tesla deny Rivian’s right to do the same? In other words, if Rivian or a third party developed an adapter that will allow Rivian‘s to charge at Tesla superchargers do the legal experts in the group think Tesla could lock them out of their network? Sort of reminds me of the requirement that Verizon, AT&T and T-Mobile make their networks available to third parties in order to promote competition.

An adapter doesn't give you the right to use the supercharging network. You just made up a "right" that doesn't exist. The issues has never been about the port or the adapter (although that is the physical part that makes it work). The DC fast chargers (all of them) communicate with the vehicle and the are able to control what vehicles are permitted to charge. It's funny how people forget that Tesla tried to get "everyone" onboard a decade ago with the supercharging network and nobody else wanted any part of it. They did it anyway and the free market recognizes who did it best...and now wants that. ......which doesn't impute some sort of legal obligation on them to share with everyone who stood against them before.

 

[RivAW]

CAN they? Sure. They can just have no mechanism for non-approved EVs to start a charge session. Right now, at the overwhelming majority of Superchargers, only Tesla vehicles can charge. There is literally zero mechanism for a non-Tesla vehicle to start a charge session. All Tesla vehicles use a form of "plug and charge." The billing information is held by the vehicle via the Tesla account, and the Supercharger and the vehicle communicate with each other to authenticate and start the session.

For current Tesla Superchargers that do allow third-party vehicles (CCS2 vehicles in Europe at Supercharger stations that allow third-party CCS2 vehicles; and CCS1 vehicles in North America using one of the few Supercharger locations equipped with a "Magic Dock",) Tesla still controls 100% of the process via the Tesla app. Users must start the charge session via the Tesla app for their non-Tesla vehicle.

Moving forward, for Ford and GM (so far) the vehicles will use Tesla's authentication, billing, charge-start method. Either natively for NACS-equipped vehicles, or via the Tesla-designed adapter. The billing will happen via Ford's "Blue Oval" system (which they use for EA Plug-and-Charge now) and GM's similar system.

It is entirely possible that Tesla will *only* allow vehicles to use a "plug and charge" type billing, which would absolutely require the carmaker have the agreement with Tesla.

I assume Tesla will offer an adapter to individuals who own vehicles made by companies without an agreement to charge at them the same way current European and "Magic Dock" North American Superchargers allow - by entering your billing information in the Tesla app and starting the charge that way. Presumably if they do this, they won't have any say any more. If you have an adapter, you can charge. If the vehicle doesn't have plug-and-charge, Tesla has no way of knowing what vehicle it is, they just know it's a vehicle using an adapter.

One big note is that Tesla has *ZERO* say on non-Supercharger locations. If EA or EVgo adopt NACS (presumably they will,) Tesla won't be able to stop THEM from charging a Rivian.

Also, one of the presumed reasons Tesla is doing this is to get federal money for Superchargers. To do that, they can't restrict access.

Agreed except for your last point. They've agreed to open up around 7500 Superchargers to all EVs by 2024. They are real nonspecific about which locations and exactly when that will happen (so far there are about 10 locations with magic docks, mostly in NY). They've already got the federal money in exchange for that promise....and that represents between 1/3-1/2 of their current locations.

 

[RivAW]

If the news reports are correct that Tesla has made there charging system open sourced, then it will allow all other charging systems to adopt the NACS plug. In future you would never have to use the Tesla Supercharger system. Being able to use it would sure be a nice feature to have. More charging stations is always better.

The problem with this logic is that it skips over the part where the problem all along hasn't necessarily been the plug (NACS vs CCS). The problem is that the other DC Fast charge companies do the bare minimum to collect federal money and skip the whole customer service and maintenance aspects so their fast chargers are not reliable while the Tesla supercharger network has an "uptime" of over 99.9%.
The whole point is that consumers want access to the Tesla Supercharger network because of the dependability, locations and customer service.....I don't think anyone cares whether the connections on those chargers are CCS, NACS or anything else...

 

[RivAW]

The stations with Magic Dock accept any CCS vehicle, as long as you have the Tesla App. Rivians, as well as many others have charged at those.

NACS is a complete failure of a standard if Tesla leverages it to block out competitors. Either competitors in manufacturing vehicles or charging competitors.

This doesn't mean that Tesla won't do this, but I believe by doing so they would kill any federal funding for NACS based chargers unless the chargers had the minimum of CCS ports.

I understand the desire to use Superchargers, and I understand the preference for the smaller NACS port. But, I fail to see why any EV fan would pin their hopes on NACS until Tesla demonstrates that its a truly open standard in the way that CCS is.

Nobody really cares much about the specific port. We want access to the superior Supercharger network that has proven reliability, speed, customer serivce and a 99.5% uptime. Additionally, your statement about NACS as a failure is laughable considering the latest developments. Finally, Tesla has tried to share with everyone for 10 years and nobody wanted to play...so they did it themselves. How are they now the "bad guy" after going it alone and finding success...and not just freely giving it all way now. BTW, they already got the govt money they wanted by agreeing to open 7500 SC locations up by 2024 (they just weren't real specific about which locations or when exactly they'd open). To your first point, so far there are about 10 locations with Magic Docks, mostly in NY (I've charged my R1T at one).

 

[MP3Mike]

They've agreed to open up around 7500 Superchargers to all EVs by 2024.

They only agreed to open 3,500 Superchargers. The remaining 4,000 are L2 EVSEs. (ie. destination chargers.)

 

[Bradyb23]

I'm no expert (have a huge salt-lick handy before reading), but I think the question "can Tesla deny Rivian’s right to [use Tesla's Supercharger network]" has a few layers to it.

Today, the only "right" to use Tesla's Supercharger network is a contractual "right," meaning if you are permitted to use it by the terms of an agreement, and the agreement is valid, then Tesla can't prohibit you from using it except per the terms of the agreement. If they do, they are in breach of that agreement.

As for Rivian eventually getting access to the Tesla Supercharger network, I think that's a different issue that depends on a few things. First, Rivian agreed to accept taxpayer dollars to open 7,500 charging stations to other manufacturers by the end of 2024, including making improvements so the network is suitable for other car designs (see https://www.latimes.com/business/st...-to-open-its-charger-network-to-non-tesla-evs). Second (as others have said), Rivian could enter into a contract with Tesla directly, not unlike the agreements between Tesla and GM and Tesla and Ford. Third, there is also a regulatory component to all of this, although this is a bigger unknown at the moment): Under the Sherman Act, Tesla may eventually be required to open its network to Rivian and others if Tesla controls a big enough share of the charging station market and its actions are potentially anti-competitive (see https://www.ftc.gov/advice-guidance/competition-guidance/guide-antitrust-laws/antitrust-laws).

And finally, I suspect that eventually the US (and others, such as the EU) will either adopt a national standard for safety or other regulatory reasons (think gas pump nozzle diameter standards, for example), or a standard will emerge simply because that's just how free markets decide who wins and who loses (think VHS vs Beta).

I think.

In the meantime, please hurry April - June 2024!

 

[Ozmt]

There are two elements here:

1. Use of the NACS connector
2. Access to the Supercharger network

They have offered the NACS as an open "standard", therefore they could not prevent Rivian from using the connector in their cars and RAN stations.

However, the Supercharger network was developed with a significant capital investment. The GM and Ford deals likely included a capital investment in additional stations. This was a negotiated deal(s). So if Rivian and Tesla were unable to negotiate a deal, they Tesla could legally keep them out of the network that they spent huge sums of money to put into place.

I'm not sure musk can refuse any vehicle from using the charging network since they've agreed to the conditions of accepting government money. There is no rule yet, that forces him to charge the same prices to non tesla, as we've seen already, but blocking us out completely would likely trigger a contract default the would require repaying government fund

 

[CharonPDX]

They only agreed to open 3,500 Superchargers. The remaining 4,000 are L2 EVSEs. (ie. destination chargers.)

Which is funny, since those are already open to all, as long as you have an adapter.

 

[psturk]

Now that GM and Ford are transitioning to NACS and Elon is allowing them to use Tesla’s supercharger network can Tesla deny Rivian’s right to do the same? In other words, if Rivian or a third party developed an adapter that will allow Rivian‘s to charge at Tesla superchargers do the legal experts in the group think Tesla could lock them out of their network? Sort of reminds me of the requirement that Verizon, AT&T and T-Mobile make their networks available to third parties in order to promote competition.

Elon historically welcomes all. He would absolutely not block any EV manufacturer from an NACS standard. There is too much money for him in it.

 

[sub]

if Rivian or a third party developed an adapter that will allow Rivian‘s to charge at Tesla superchargers do the legal experts in the group think Tesla could lock them out of their network?

If Rivian developed a adapter without coordinating with Tesla, there is 0% chance it would work at a Tesla owned charger.

You need more than just a physical connector, you also need to pay Tesla for the electricity - which is not possible without Tesla's cooperation.

Tesla could not however prevent you from using that adapter to charge at somebody else's NACS charger.

 

[Craigins]

It's amazing how many people just post without actually reading.

I miss the days when that was only Peashooter.

 

[MP3Mike]

First, Rivian agreed to accept taxpayer dollars to open 7,500 charging stations to other manufacturers by the end of 2024,

I assume you meant Tesla, not Rivian. And it is only for 3,500 Supercharging stations.

I'm not sure musk can refuse any vehicle from using the charging network since they've agreed to the conditions of accepting government money.

The money they took is only linked to opening 3,500 Superchargers, not the entire network. Those will likely all be MagicDock. (The roll-out is probably paused because people figured out how to easily disconnect the adapter from the NACS cable, and Tesla needs to come up with a new locking mechanism.)

 

[Autolycus]

Elon historically welcomes all. He would absolutely not block any EV manufacturer from an NACS standard. There is too much money for him in it.

He's historically been welcoming of all, so long as they were willing to agree to onerous terms and conditions that put him and Tesla in the drivers seat.

 

[Stack]

Now that GM and Ford are transitioning to NACS and Elon is allowing them to use Tesla’s supercharger network can Tesla deny Rivian’s right to do the same? In other words, if Rivian or a third party developed an adapter that will allow Rivian‘s to charge at Tesla superchargers do the legal experts in the group think Tesla could lock them out of their network? Sort of reminds me of the requirement that Verizon, AT&T and T-Mobile make their networks available to third parties in order to promote competition.

Why would Tesla lock them out? Kind of stupid if you ask me. Tesla only benefits from everyone using the network. The only people that will screw this up would be Rivian and if they refuse to go down this road, it will be another nail in the coffin for them. Fingers crossed that they do it though.

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