V2L (Vehicle-to-Load) - has anyone tried it?

[Rivian Owner]

I feel kind of stuck wanting to start investing into this area. I almost bought a couple of powerwalls for my house. But I want to have the ability to add solar later, and also v2x with my rivian and whatever vehicle I own in the future. Even if you discount support for rivian, there are so many choices it's decision fatigue time. That device only outputs 12kw if I understand it. That's too low for certain scenarios, our rivians today can charge at 10.5kw (48amps). With powerwalls, each bank of it adds more capacity - then you get stuck in Tesla's ecosystem. Edit - the docs on the inverter you mention says it's stackable, so you can just add another one, then you separately add battery?

I want to do the following - anyone figure this out?

1. get a couple of powerwalls with switch to take over at the house (or some other equivalent system)
2. panel upgrade to match this
3. later add solar
4. later add support for v2x with rivian. This is lowest priority bc power walls can handle the house needs, and standards are unknown for Rivian and who knows if a real standard will emerge, will rivian support it.

One of the closest products I've seen that will handle what you are looking to do is made by SolArk https://www.sol-ark.com I have micro-inverters on my solar array so I'd need a way to feed AC to whatever inverter I invest in. SolArk has a couple of inputs for AC coupling, they can interface with batteries via DC and they have a generator input, which may take the Rivian's output (still a lot we don't know about BiDi (bidirectional charging) for Rivian). They can handle the transfer from the utility to your energy stores/generator. You might also look at their battery partners for an alternative to the Tesla batteries. SolArk comes with high recommendations from two Solar company owners I've worked with and trust.

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[Thedude]

Can I ask how you measure usage? I don't have a way, the generac I use doesn't appear to have a way to monitor it. I have the app, basically it says is it sitting there or not.

That graph is from my utility company. My Honda generator has Bluetooth and the app shows realtime power draw as loads turn on/off. It’s a useful way to cycle things on one at a time to see start up load and continuous load and know what combination of equipment will overload the generator.

 

[usofrob]

My intention is to get a smart panel, battery backup and allow for the V2H


I feel like I'm in a wait and see position right now.

I want a smart panel, battery backup, V2H and solar input. I think that's the final form of what I'm looking for.

The fixed battery will take care of the home while waiting for the EV to return and supply the lion's share of the backup.

I don't know exactly how Rivian's V2H will integrate without it existing and knowing what it will work with.

This is basically what I'm looking for as well. I don't care about the smart panel. I don't have power outages very often, so I don't mind a little bit of manual switching of things. But, it'd be nice. I'd want a whole home backup with decent attached battery, then use the Rivian as a generator for when the power is out for a long time. 1500W continuous = 1.5kw * 24h = 36kwh. That's probably about what I average use in a day. Maybe continuous it should only be 1.2kwh, but still fully charged Rivian + Solar is many days of not worrying about power. I have gas for air and water heating.

I got slightly distracted after my earlier comment and I see that EG4 has a couple new boxes that seem to be preparing for integrating with other systems. They've got their GridBOSS that seems to be doing the smarts for all the AC switching, then an updated inverter FlexBOSS21 that focuses on the DC solar, DC battery interacting with AC in/out.
https://www.currentconnected.com/product/eg4gridboss/
https://www.currentconnected.com/product/eg4flexboss21/

As someone noted above the Sol-Ark 15k is very similar and generally considered better than EG4. But EG4 is developing at a fast pace.

I also saw the one that looks similar to the others. When reading the manual about the generator, it looks like it's okay with low power generators (like the Rivian's current 120VAC output). The EG4 looks like it has a configuration that would work for that too.
https://www.currentconnected.com/product/midnite-theone-11-4kw-hybrid-all-in-one-inverter/

The other significant problem I'm worried about is finding installers for these customer purchased devices. It's my understanding that most installers want to purchase the equipment for you, as they have more experience with their provided brands and can mark it up appropriately. (i.e. it's a slightly more reliable install and they make more money).

Has anyone had any luck finding good installers in Michigan?
If the IRA Is repealed, one could quickly buy some equipment before it takes effect then find an installer.

 

[Jonger1150]

This is basically what I'm looking for as well. I don't care about the smart panel. I don't have power outages very often, so I don't mind a little bit of manual switching of things. But, it'd be nice. I'd want a whole home backup with decent attached battery, then use the Rivian as a generator for when the power is out for a long time. 1500W continuous = 1.5kw * 24h = 36kwh. That's probably about what I average use in a day. Maybe continuous it should only be 1.2kwh, but still fully charged Rivian + Solar is many days of not worrying about power. I have gas for air and water heating.

I got slightly distracted after my earlier comment and I see that EG4 has a couple new boxes that seem to be preparing for integrating with other systems. They've got their GridBOSS that seems to be doing the smarts for all the AC switching, then an updated inverter FlexBOSS21 that focuses on the DC solar, DC battery interacting with AC in/out.
https://www.currentconnected.com/product/eg4gridboss/
https://www.currentconnected.com/product/eg4flexboss21/

As someone noted above the Sol-Ark 15k is very similar and generally considered better than EG4. But EG4 is developing at a fast pace.

I also saw the one that looks similar to the others. When reading the manual about the generator, it looks like it's okay with low power generators (like the Rivian's current 120VAC output). The EG4 looks like it has a configuration that would work for that too.
https://www.currentconnected.com/product/midnite-theone-11-4kw-hybrid-all-in-one-inverter/

The other significant problem I'm worried about is finding installers for these customer purchased devices. It's my understanding that most installers want to purchase the equipment for you, as they have more experience with their provided brands and can mark it up appropriately. (i.e. it's a slightly more reliable install and they make more money).

Has anyone had any luck finding good installers in Michigan?
If the IRA Is repealed, one could quickly buy some equipment before it takes effect then find an installer.

I'm in Michigan also, so let me know what you find.

 

[usofrob]

I'm in Michigan also, so let me know what you find.

Two lost souls.
I would do the install of the electrical stuff myself. I feel like the codes for that aren't too difficult. But, my time has value. So, it'd be nice to find a professional you could hook it all up ready for solar and get it approved by DTE.

 

[Zoidz]

This is basically what I'm looking for as well. I don't care about the smart panel. I don't have power outages very often, so I don't mind a little bit of manual switching of things. But, it'd be nice. I'd want a whole home backup with decent attached battery, then use the Rivian as a generator for when the power is out for a long time. 1500W continuous = 1.5kw * 24h = 36kwh. That's probably about what I average use in a day. Maybe continuous it should only be 1.2kwh, but still fully charged Rivian + Solar is many days of not worrying about power. I have gas for air and water heating.

I got slightly distracted after my earlier comment and I see that EG4 has a couple new boxes that seem to be preparing for integrating with other systems. They've got their GridBOSS that seems to be doing the smarts for all the AC switching, then an updated inverter FlexBOSS21 that focuses on the DC solar, DC battery interacting with AC in/out.
https://www.currentconnected.com/product/eg4gridboss/
https://www.currentconnected.com/product/eg4flexboss21/

As someone noted above the Sol-Ark 15k is very similar and generally considered better than EG4. But EG4 is developing at a fast pace.

I also saw the one that looks similar to the others. When reading the manual about the generator, it looks like it's okay with low power generators (like the Rivian's current 120VAC output). The EG4 looks like it has a configuration that would work for that too.
https://www.currentconnected.com/product/midnite-theone-11-4kw-hybrid-all-in-one-inverter/

The other significant problem I'm worried about is finding installers for these customer purchased devices. It's my understanding that most installers want to purchase the equipment for you, as they have more experience with their provided brands and can mark it up appropriately. (i.e. it's a slightly more reliable install and they make more money).

Has anyone had any luck finding good installers in Michigan?
If the IRA Is repealed, one could quickly buy some equipment before it takes effect then find an installer.

It sounds like you've done some research on EG4. I started looking at their products a few years ago. They sort of remind me of Rivian - US based, trying to be innovative, growing rapidly, and unfortunately some of the reviews regarding problems and support have not been so good over the past few years.

 

[usofrob]

It sounds like you've done some research on EG4. I started looking at their products a few years ago. They sort of remind me of Rivian - US based, trying to be innovative, growing rapidly, and unfortunately some of the reviews regarding problems and support have not been so good over the past few years.

I think they repackage some other manufacturers HW and make their own SW. I looked at this a lot about a year ago. But I'm also waiting for information about Rivian's V2L before pursuing it further. This space is still developing to quickly, there is no rush to get in. It'll keep getting better and a little cheaper. Although, I suspect the power electronics may go up, the integrated systems may help bring the entire cost down.

 

[HyperionMark]

One of the closest products I've seen that will handle what you are looking to do is made by SolArk https://www.sol-ark.com I have micro-inverters on my solar array so I'd need a way to feed AC to whatever inverter I invest in. SolArk has a couple of inputs for AC coupling, they can interface with batteries via DC and they have a generator input, which may take the Rivian's output (still a lot we don't know about BiDi (bidirectional charging) for Rivian). They can handle the transfer from the utility to your energy stores/generator. You might also look at their battery partners for an alternative to the Tesla batteries. SolArk comes with high recommendations from two Solar company owners I've worked with and trust.

I've had a SolArk for the last 4 years. Solid as a rock even if the app sucks. Also would love to use bidirectional for the generator input.

 

[Rivian Owner]

My understanding is a lot of the companies making inverters buy the hardware and add their own so

I've had a SolArk for the last 4 years. Solid as a rock even if the app sucks. Also would love to use bidirectional for the generator input.

In talking with SolArk's tech support, since we don't know what Rivian is going to deliver, it is a little difficult to talk about how to interface a Rivian to any system out there. The engineer thought the gen port would work, but didn't know if the switching would be an automatic or manual process.

BiDi gets tricky, because you have to manage SOC and when to charge and from what source, and then who supplies the power when the utility shuts power off, along with time of day and variable rate pricing logic. And of course you also have to figure out what to do when your EV is not at home. Most devices in your home are unidirectional so it is easy to anticipate the flow of electrons, BiDi changes all of that.

 

[usofrob]

Apparently V2L is only one directional. So, I wonder if we're actually looking for V2H, or similar.

I think most of the solutions will do the Vehicle DC to AC conversion either inside the vehicle or in the bi-directional charger on the wall. I was imagining that one would just have the DC connection all the way to the whole home inverter. They seem to need to use the communication pins for some of this as well.

Does anyone know what Rivian's plans are for where/how it does the AC/DC and DC/AC conversion?
Do they plan on supporting bi-directional?

Right now, you could have the 120VAC 1500W output from the vehicle go into the generator port on the hybrid inverter, then have a 240V 10kW output from one of the panels, or a dedicated port. Then you'd just have to setup the output port to not charge when power is lost, or battery less than X%, and turn on the 1500W manually to get the 'generator' working.

 

[Dark-Fx]

Two lost souls.
I would do the install of the electrical stuff myself. I feel like the codes for that aren't too difficult. But, my time has value. So, it'd be nice to find a professional you could hook it all up ready for solar and get it approved by DTE.

I just got my permit to do the work for installing the GM V2H stuff. I have no intention of backfeeding the grid though, so the only involvement DTE has is me telling them I'm upgrading the service line from the meter, which I have. Supposedly you can hang solar on the GM system but they don't advertise it yet, so it might not be enabled. I probably am not going the solar route quite yet.

Interesting part is the permit says I have to comply with NEC 2018 rules... which I'm not even sure covers this as an application, but I'd have to look.

Does anyone know what Rivian's plans are for where/how it does the AC/DC and DC/AC conversion?
Do they plan on supporting bi-directional?

R1 will only support bi-directional over DC, 22kW worth.

R2 will support AC and DC, but the AC is limited to 48A I think?

 

[usofrob]

Yeah, selling back to DTE is hardly worth much because even peak of the day, they barely give you more than what it costs at the low if you're on the TOU plan. If you have solar, I think the better option is to charge your EV if you're generating solar power and your home batteries are nearly full. This clearly would apply to Mr. Dark-Fx.

Please update us with how it all works out for you, installation wise and usage.

 

[michiganpinball]

I've had a SolArk for the last 4 years. Solid as a rock even if the app sucks. Also would love to use bidirectional for the generator input.

We also have a SOL ARK 15K with 15KW of solar, 30kwh of signature solar battery. The Solar 15K has been rock solid for the 2 years we have had it. It is between the utility disconnect and our main house panel so it acts as a whole house UPS. When the grid drops we usually don't even know as the switch to battery is VERY fast. Sometimes the LED lights will flicker but clocks etc don't even reset.

The sol-ark supports generator start/stop but we don't have a generator connected to the SOL-ARK. For long outages we have a signature solar Chargeverter. This devices accepts AC input and connects directly to our batteries and can deliver 5kw to the batteries. Since it connects directly to the DC batteries the Sol-Ark doesn't need to know about it. You can power the Chargeverter with a gas/diesel generator and it will tolerate not great input power while the Sol-Ark generator input wants pretty clean power from a generator - and will lock it out if it isn't.

One could use the accessory plug in the Rivian to power the Chargeverter at 1200w (you can set this max on the Chargeverter) and charge the house batteries with the Rivian. Even though the wattage is low from the Rivian the house batteries can output 14KW which is enough to start our AC/Heat Pump and run the house. So leaving the Rivian connected 24hr should deliver at least 24kwh to the house batteries. This should be enough for us to cover an event where the grid is down for a long time and the sun isn't shining (for reference in full sunlight the panels will charge the batteries from 0 to 100% in 3 hours or less).

I haven't tested this yet with my R1T Gen2 dual large+. My only concern is if the onboard inverter that powers the Rivian accessory plugs can output 1200w continuously without issues. Has any one run it continuously at 1200 watts or so?

 

[usofrob]

We also have a SOL ARK 15K with 15KW of solar, 30kwh of signature solar battery. The Solar 15K has been rock solid for the 2 years we have had it. It is between the utility disconnect and our main house panel so it acts as a whole house UPS. When the grid drops we usually don't even know as the switch to battery is VERY fast. Sometimes the LED lights will flicker but clocks etc don't even reset.

The sol-ark supports generator start/stop but we don't have a generator connected to the SOL-ARK. For long outages we have a signature solar Chargeverter. This devices accepts AC input and connects directly to our batteries and can deliver 5kw to the batteries. Since it connects directly to the DC batteries the Sol-Ark doesn't need to know about it. You can power the Chargeverter with a gas/diesel generator and it will tolerate not great input power while the Sol-Ark generator input wants pretty clean power from a generator - and will lock it out if it isn't.

One could use the accessory plug in the Rivian to power the Chargeverter at 1200w (you can set this max on the Chargeverter) and charge the house batteries with the Rivian. Even though the wattage is low from the Rivian the house batteries can output 14KW which is enough to start our AC/Heat Pump and run the house. So leaving the Rivian connected 24hr should deliver at least 24kwh to the house batteries. This should be enough for us to cover an event where the grid is down for a long time and the sun isn't shining (for reference in full sunlight the panels will charge the batteries from 0 to 100% in 3 hours or less).

I haven't tested this yet with my R1T Gen2 dual large+. My only concern is if the onboard inverter that powers the Rivian accessory plugs can output 1200w continuously without issues. Has any one run it continuously at 1200 watts or so?

This is nearly exactly what I want to do. Can you share any more about the installation process? Who did you use? I'm only about 45 minutes away from you. So, I'm sure they'd cover my area too.

 

[michiganpinball]

This is nearly exactly what I want to do. Can you share any more about the installation process? Who did you use? I'm only about 45 minutes away from you. So, I'm sure they'd cover my area too.

It was a hybrid of DIY and contractors. For the racking (my panels are ground mounted) and panel installation we used Mid-America Solar. We purchased the sol-ark 15k whole house inverter and 30kwh of Signature Solar Lifepower 4 batteries. Did the trenching and rough wiring myself and hired an electrician to do the permits and final installation. This was about 50% of the cost that turn key providers were quoting.

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