Max Pack vs Large Pack range test (by Out of Spec)

[Denver_Paulie]

Just did this drive back from Hays to Denver yesterday. I saw how bad the recent plugshare reviews were for Burlington, and Flagler was showing only 2 up at 50 kw. I decided to top off to 94% at Colby (no one waiting on my space) so I could skip both and charge at Limon. Colby is also much cheaper since EA still charges by the minute (no one else does in KS from my experience). Limon worked well and I was the only one charging until another R1T pulled up as I left.

We really need some additional charging options in eastern CO.

On my next drive from Denver to Lawrence, KS I plan to try the 100kW charger in Goodland since I have not used it before. If it is reliable, and easy to use, I am planning making that my last charging stop on the return drive back from Lawrence to Denver.

In regards to more charging options in eastern Colorado, there will some day be a Rivian charger in the same lot as the EA chargers in Flagler. Last summer I had a conversation with the owner of the I-70 Diner, and he mentioned he owns the land where the EA changer sits, and the land adjacent to it. He mentioned that he had finished up positive conversations with Rivian for them to install a charger right next to the EA ones.

Hopefully we see something by the end of 2024. And, hopefully, Rivian is able to to find reliable servicing teams to maintain chargers out there since it is pretty remote, and not close to any place where there are sufficiently skilled electrical teams to maintain EV chargers. This is probably the issues EA faces on maintaining the Flagler chargers.

Sorry to get off topic, but on the whole Kyle/Rivian max pack versus large pack thing, I don't really care since I don't tow anything, and the interstate EV charging infrastructure is not dense enough to where chargers are 25 or 40 miles apart, so I charge where the chargers are located. My idea of camping is a week in a nice hotel in Telluride, so I am not worried how I am going to get someplace super remote and then have enough charge to get back to charging infrastructure. All I know is $10k is a lot of money for 30 or 40 extra miles. Hell, for $15k more than I spent on my Rivian, I could buy a Hummer EV and have 350 - 400 miles of highway range if I swapped out to all season tires on that beast. In my opinion, the math just does not make sense, but that is just my two cents.

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[RivianDad2]

Just out of curiosity, who offers an extended warranty that covers battery and motors. I have searched everywhere and not been able to find one. All of the ones available specifically exclude the motors and batteries. Did this search a while ago for Teslas. I know Legacy manufacturers offer extended warranties that cover these items but it is in house only.

Fidelity platinum covers EV batteries, but not “gradual battery capacity loss.” The platinum warranty is exclusionary and motors are not listed on the excluded list.

 

[Mark_AZR1T]

It's not a definitive test, but it's done in the real world with all the real world variability that comes with a 300mi drive (wind fluctuations, speed fluctuations, elevation, temperature, etc.)

And given that the 2 trucks were treated in identical ways, there's no reason to believe one was given more favorable treatment.

The resulting data is in line with Rivian EPA data.

The result is that, with a relatively high degree of confidence, the max pack has 20-25mi more range on a long distance drive at 70mph in cool temperatures.

Based on everything we currently know, it's unlikely for this delta to be significantly different at different temperatures or modestly different speeds. There is a small chance that at very high (or as as suggested by EPA data very low) speeds the difference may grow. But I would not count on it.

Kyle is trying to be very clear on what is speculation vs fact. All the data shows the max pack capacity doesn't account for the entirety of the advertised range difference. And that's OK, but people should know.

For me, capacity and charging is more important than range - when towing, the trailer knocks efficiency down to abysmal levels, as the trailer is almost universally going to dominate the aerodynamic drag. It may also mitigate some of the drivetrain "highway" efficiency efforts.

I won't knock anybody who wants to purchase the max pack. I do believe there is some legitimate value there. I don't see how there is more than a $1-3k of value to my use cases. And if the average charging rate is any worse than the large pack, then it may be of negative value to me.

Initially, I'm in this camp. Head to head comparison (one data point, yes), but even if there is a 5% discrepancy, it becomes very difficult to justify the expenditure to a wider audience. From a marketing standpoint, Rivian should have the MAX battery be the standard for the Quad Motor vehicles.

 

[strykerwsu]

On my next drive from Denver to Lawrence, KS I plan to try the 100kW charger in Goodland since I have not used it before. If it is reliable, and easy to use, I am planning making that my last charging stop on the return drive back from Lawrence to Denver.

In regards to more charging options in eastern Colorado, there will some day be a Rivian charger in the same lot as the EA chargers in Flagler. Last summer I had a conversation with the owner of the I-70 Diner, and he mentioned he owns the land where the EA changer sits, and the land adjacent to it. He mentioned that he had finished up positive conversations with Rivian for them to install a charger right next to the EA ones.

Hopefully we see something by the end of 2024. And, hopefully, Rivian is able to to find reliable servicing teams to maintain chargers out there since it is pretty remote, and not close to any place where there are sufficiently skilled electrical teams to maintain EV chargers. This is probably the issues EA faces on maintaining the Flagler chargers.

Sorry to get off topic, but on the whole Kyle/Rivian max pack versus large pack thing, I don't really care since I don't tow anything, and the interstate EV charging infrastructure is not dense enough to where chargers are 25 or 40 miles apart, so I charge where the chargers are located. My idea of camping is a week in a nice hotel in Telluride, so I am not worried how I am going to get someplace super remote and then have enough charge to get back to charging infrastructure. All I know is $10k is a lot of money for 30 or 40 extra miles. Hell, for $15k more than I spent on my Rivian, I could buy a Hummer EV and have 350 - 400 miles of highway range if I swapped out to all season tires on that beast. In my opinion, the math just does not make sense, but that is just my two cents.

The $.59 a kWh stings on those at Goodland but is at least an option. Also growing up on a farm in that area many farmers (Jack of all trades) are skilled enough at electricity but to your point probably don’t have the certification needed to work on them.

 

[RivRiv]

2.4 mi/kwh is actually pretty good. Not many get more than that. So, doesn't appear that the cold weather impacted it that much. 50 degrees isn't that cold. Batteries really struggle when temps get close to freezing. Basically, the Max pack only offers 11 more kwh over the Large pack. That's nearly $1,000 per kw. Far higher than the $100 per kwh battery cost manufacturers are aiming for and still far beyond the $500 per kwh they're actually charging for more capacity today. I'd save the $10,000 unless your common long distance route would be greatly benefitted by 20 or more so miles per charge. Could be for some depending on spacing of chargers. For most, 20 miles isn't going to let you skip many charging stops. Might save you 5 minutes of charge time at each stop.

I comes from eleven years of Tesla ownership from an original S to an X to 3 Performance. Never got 4 mi/kwh and typically it was between 2.5- 3.5 mi/kwh , so the Riv R1T actually does pretty well. Plus, Tesla does not offer a conserve mode which helps dramatically in range. Tesla do not like cold weather and my range losses were typically 20-30% in winter even with a super bottle and heat pump on the 3.

 

[NineElectrics]

When round tripping into the mountains, that extra 22 miles can matter. But for most people, the Max Pack will be a placebo.

 

[Rividiculous]

First, I write as a max pack reservation holder and agree it is probably overpriced and doesn’t make sense for most. I have what I think is a fairly unusual use case so for me, extra range is worth it, I think. (Especially as I have the old pricing.) The range test is helpful though I expect better range overall (and thus a greater delta) given lower average NYC metro area speeds. (Or maybe I’m just a range anxiety sucker.)

Second, I notice the Max Pack has disappeared completely from the R1 Shop recently. Have others noticed the same? Is this coincidental or could it be related to Kyle’s most recent OOS podcast?

Third, as a long time reader and first time commenter, I’d like to thank you, the Rivian community. I have found a lot of helpful information on this forum. You are a thoughtful bunch of folks. Thank you! I hope I eventually have a Rivian to share my thoughts about.

 

[TheRivian]

I’m scheduled to take delivery of a dual motor max pack R1S on 4 Jan

I purchased it from the Rivian shop and unfortunately at the time there were no dual motor large packs available in a colour combo I was remotely interested in.

Now completely second guessing my decision. I’m debating whether I should push out delivery for a couple of weeks to see how things shake out, cancel the order, or just say screw it and take the car

 

[Supratachophobia]

I will now do the unthinkable and switch to defending the max pack. If it's true the max pack trim comes with the silicone carbide inverter in the rear as well, that may be worth a non-zero dollar amount.

 

[RivianDad2]

I will now do the unthinkable and switch to defending the max pack. If it's true the max pack trim comes with the silicone carbide inverter in the rear as well, that may be worth a non-zero dollar amount.

In English, please.?

 

[mkhuffman]

In English, please.?

I think he means the flux capacitor.

 

[Supratachophobia]

In English, please.?

So, I'm not an engineer. But in these tear down videos. They talked about the microchips being of a "mosfet" design. And you can make these things with different materials. Some cost more but give you a more efficient conversion from DC (battery) to AC (motor).

They also claim that by having two different inverters, they can better weather supply chain issues. No idea if that's the primary motivation, my person guess is that we'll see the cheaper ones go-to the LFP packs. The front motor in the dual has these "silicon carbide" inverters. But there were comments that the rear was using a standard inverter.

Well, because the max pack is more efficient in the city EPA tests, where the rear motor is in use, @brice terrorized that the rear was also this more efficient design. Because just changing the cells in the pack wouldn't have made it more or less efficient (no, it's not weight, stop thinking that).

 

[KY Serenity]

Just out of curiosity, who offers an extended warranty that covers battery and motors. I have searched everywhere and not been able to find one. All of the ones available specifically exclude the motors and batteries. Did this search a while ago for Teslas. I know Legacy manufacturers offer extended warranties that cover these items but it is in house only.

I do not know if someone offers extended battery warranties for Rivians but one is available for Teslas: 057tech.com.

 

[KY Serenity]

I agree with Joseph D that the range of both packs was reduced by at least 20 miles due to the conditions. The temps were in the 50s at the start and ended in the low 40s. Both trucks ran their heaters set at 70. Unlike the current Teslas that use heat pumps, Rivian employs resistance heaters.

My 2016 Model S uses a resistance heater, and it devours my SOC. In all likelihood, the range of both packs easily could be increased by 30 miles or more on a warmer day not requiring use of the heater.

It would be most useful to have a 70 MPH range test in good conditions (flat, low wind, 70 degrees, no heater or AC) using the large or max pack with dual motors and 21” wheels. I have not seen one. Tom Moloughney of Insideevs tested the R1T with the all-terrain package and 20” wheels. Edmunds range tests are a combination of city and highway (rather worthless for testing road trip conditions). Car and Driver tests at 75MPH, not 70MPH.

Has anyone seen a 70MPH range test in good conditions with DM and 21” wheels?

Despite the range achieved in both trucks during the OOS evaluation being flawed, the 22.3 mile range difference between the large and max packs still seems valid since both R1Ts experienced the identical conditions.

 

[Electrified Outdoors]

If we know what the usable capacity of a pack is, range is simply a matter of the efficiency at a given speed right? The efficiency should take into account the use of accessories such as HVAC and battery conditioning. So if you have 142 kwh usable and your efficiency at 70 mph is 2.2 mi per kwh you can expect a range of about 313 miles. This of course provided you maintain the same efficiency for the entire trip.

Maybe its just me but these range tests seem like its a lot of unnecessary time. Now that we have something like ElectraFi we can track what the efficiency is during different temperature extremes.

The problem with range tests is that there are too many variables, and while Kyle does try to account for many of them, through no fault of his, its just not possible. In a lab where you can control all variables that isn't the real world. In the real world your mileage will vary.

Look at your trip meter and track your average efficiency and from there you can get a good idea what your range will be. I guarantee it will vary ...sometimes by a lot.

I think for a lot of folks they would rather spend the $10,000 regardless knowing they got the highest battery capacity possible.

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