12v Lead Acid Battery Replacement

[UnsungZero_OldTimeAdMan]

Fullriver Battery says this battery will work. The physical size looks correct, the posts are internally threaded, and in the right position (red on left, black on right, when nearest the observer). Plus, it's rated at 20Ah.

Edit: note that the "L" in FT230L is probably what designates the terminal is on the correct side for use in a Rivian. Be sure to specify that, if you buy one of these. This version is not the standard version which is more commonly available.

https://fullriverbattery.com/batteries/part-ft230l/

This is 20 Ah. Ohmmu's is 22 Ah. Genuinely curious why Fullriver over the other?

Sponsored

 

[zymolysis]

This is 20 Ah. Ohmmu's is 22 Ah. Genuinely curious why Fullriver over the other?

This is an AGM SLA battery, same as the original (except rated at 20Ah, versus the original, which is rated at 18Ah). Ohmmu is a lithium replacement, with additional BMS and heaters, because lithium has different charge requirements and a different temperature range. Also, this should be in the $100 to $160 range (each), in my estimate, versus the $500 or $600 for the Ohmmu batteries.
I've got nothing against lithium or Ohmmu. However, I think I can get by with replacing one (the driver's side) of these AGM batteries, and connecting to a trickle charger from time to time.

 

[antimatter]

I got the dreaded 12-volt battery warning this morning. Called Rivian and set up an appointment to get it replaced (under warranty) at the Minneapolis Service Center tomorrow. Mobil service would have been out about 30(ish) days, and I work from home on Wednesdays so no big deal.

I guess I'll be running some battery tender leads from my 12 volt. I'll just have to figure out a good way to make it accessible for easy connection/disconnection to a battery tender. I've been riding motorcycles my whole life, so battery tenders and leads are not new to me.

FWIW, I had this same thing happen about 18 months into ownership of a new Honda Ridgeline. Honda has notoriously lousy OEM 12-volt batteries, and when the truck started throwing ABS errors I was 90% sure I knew what was going on. Sure enough, my 12-volt needed replacement. Motorcycles, especially vintage, are even worse. Most m/c charging systems are primitive, and the 12-volt battery not only runs stuff but also soaks up a lot of punishment from system spikes and low voltage situations. I know of several riders who replace their 12-volt batteries yearly, especially for those folks who ride big bikes in stop and go traffic.

Obviously it would be good to eliminate the 12-volt system entirely, but there is going to need to be a massive industry change for that to take place. Some day, maybe...

 

[mudito]

I got the dreaded 12-volt battery warning this morning. Called Rivian and set up an appointment to get it replaced (under warranty) at the Minneapolis Service Center tomorrow. Mobil service would have been out about 30(ish) days, and I work from home on Wednesdays so no big deal.

I guess I'll be running some battery tender leads from my 12 volt. I'll just have to figure out a good way to make it accessible for easy connection/disconnection to a battery tender. I've been riding motorcycles my whole life, so battery tenders and leads are not new to me.

FWIW, I had this same thing happen about 18 months into ownership of a new Honda Ridgeline. Honda has notoriously lousy OEM 12-volt batteries, and when the truck started throwing ABS errors I was 90% sure I knew what was going on. Sure enough, my 12-volt needed replacement. Motorcycles, especially vintage, are even worse. Most m/c charging systems are primitive, and the 12-volt battery not only runs stuff but also soaks up a lot of punishment from system spikes and low voltage situations. I know of several riders who replace their 12-volt batteries yearly, especially for those folks who ride big bikes in stop and go traffic.

Obviously it would be good to eliminate the 12-volt system entirely, but there is going to need to be a massive industry change for that to take place. Some day, maybe...

Leave your truck plugged into an L2 charger and you will not need the battery tenders. It'll pull power from the AC plug to keep the 12v topped off

 

[antimatter]

Leave your truck plugged into an L2 charger and you will not need the battery tenders. It'll pull power from the AC plug to keep the 12v topped off

Good to know - thanks!

 

[mudito]

Good to know - thanks!

make sure to set a charging limit that it's good for you (maybe 70%) and REMOVE the schedule so it'll allow charging at all times.

 

[zymolysis]

Leave your truck plugged into an L2 charger and you will not need the battery tenders. It'll pull power from the AC plug to keep the 12v topped off

That just increases the number of charge cycles, and the amount of time it spends at low charge. Plugging in a battery tender will do a better job of charging it, and keeping it in the upper acceptable range.

 

[mudito]

That just increases the number of charge cycles, and the amount of time it spends at low charge. Plugging in a battery tender will do a better job of charging it, and keeping it in the upper acceptable range.

Really? Don't want to be disrespectful but the first part of your reply makes no sense at all.

First of all, YES a GOOD battery tender will do the job and I actually personally use them ever so often for desulfatation and overall battery health, but if the battery is almost dead and you only have a (let's say) 5AMP battery tender, you'll be in trouble.

Now, cycles. It's RIVIAN's own recommendation to keep the vehicle plugged in at all times when a 12V fault happens. Reason why is twofold:
a) While L2 charging, the truck keeps the 12V charging system active (so works the same as a battery tender) and,
b) it doesn't rely on HV Battery for charging if the 12V system needs topped off.

Most trucks that BRICKs due to the 12V batteries being low/damaged or whatever, they ' die' because the truck shuts itself down in order to protect the HV Battery and it's 12V charging circuit.

Also, every single specialized soul around there who are experts on Lithium Ion Batteries agree that whatever kills your batteries are not just charging and discharging or ' adding cycles' like you stated. Reasons to kill a Li ION battery are (and it depends of its chemistry):

• Time - Just age of a battery makes it degrade itself
• Temperature - pretty obvious
• Being charged at a very high State of Charge for a long period (hence Rivian's 70% recommendation)
• Being DISCHARGED to a very low state of charge for a long period. (let's say <10%)
• LAST (but actually the least) a very Deep depth of discharge/charge (i.e.: going every day from 100 to 0).

Most EV manufacturers recommend to charge DAILY to a decent SoC (70% for non-LFP Rivian's) in order to PRESERVE battery health.


there.. Rant over Thanks for your input.

 

[UnsungZero_OldTimeAdMan]

Really? Don't want to be disrespectful but the first part of your reply makes no sense at all.

First of all, YES a GOOD battery tender will do the job and I actually personally use them ever so often for desulfatation and overall battery health, but if the battery is almost dead and you only have a (let's say) 5AMP battery tender, you'll be in trouble.

Now, cycles. It's RIVIAN's own recommendation to keep the vehicle plugged in at all times when a 12V fault happens. Reason why is twofold:
a) While L2 charging, the truck keeps the 12V charging system active (so works the same as a battery tender) and,
b) it doesn't rely on HV Battery for charging if the 12V system needs topped off.

Most trucks that BRICKs due to the 12V batteries being low/damaged or whatever, they ' die' because the truck shuts itself down in order to protect the HV Battery and it's 12V charging circuit.

Also, every single specialized soul around there who are experts on Lithium Ion Batteries agree that whatever kills your batteries are not just charging and discharging or ' adding cycles' like you stated. Reasons to kill a Li ION battery are (and it depends of its chemistry):

• Time - Just age of a battery makes it degrade itself
• Temperature - pretty obvious
• Being charged at a very high State of Charge for a long period (hence Rivian's 70% recommendation)
• Being DISCHARGED to a very low state of charge for a long period. (let's say <10%)
• LAST (but actually the least) a very Deep depth of discharge/charge (i.e.: going every day from 100 to 0).

Most EV manufacturers recommend to charge DAILY to a decent SoC (70% for non-LFP Rivian's) in order to PRESERVE battery health.


there.. Rant over Thanks for your input.

Plus, cost of 12V is a small fraction of cost to replace HV pack. Even if increased amount of cycles degrades 12V it’s a small sacrifice. As for potential of damaging HV pack by keeping it plugged, revisit Engineering Explained videos on NMC and LFP packs. Session with smaller SOC deltas isn’t the cause for degradation. It’s larger deltas; i.e. charging from 20 to 80% [frequently] is more harmful than 60 to 80% (i.e. each high delta sessions is higher % of a full cycle).

And the primary point behind trickle charging 12V with external tender isn’t to preserve the 12V. It’s to avoid vampire drain of the HV pack; while it does help health of 12V in the process (but it's still not going to last forever, no 12V does).

 

[antimatter]

I just wanted to give everyone a quick update. I took my '23 R1T (Dual Motor Max Performance) to the Minneapolis Service center. They also replaced the ting (hope I got that right) washers and repaired one axle boot that was oozing (their words) grease. I was there (working from home that day) from 2:15 PM to 5 PM, so I had a chance to finish off a book and chat with the service writers for a bit. I drove home and the truck seemed a bit crisper handling, but that could have been my imagination. All in all it was pretty painless.

 

[mudito]

I just wanted to give everyone a quick update. I took my '23 R1T (Dual Motor Max Performance) to the Minneapolis Service center. They also replaced the ting (hope I got that right) washers and repaired one axle boot that was oozing (their words) grease. I was there (working from home that day) from 2:15 PM to 5 PM, so I had a chance to finish off a book and chat with the service writers for a bit. I drove home and the truck seemed a bit crisper handling, but that could have been my imagination. All in all it was pretty painless.

Great to hear! Very quick response!

 

[zymolysis]

Really? Don't want to be disrespectful but the first part of your reply makes no sense at all.

First of all, YES a GOOD battery tender will do the job and I actually personally use them ever so often for desulfatation and overall battery health, but if the battery is almost dead and you only have a (let's say) 5AMP battery tender, you'll be in trouble.

Now, cycles. It's RIVIAN's own recommendation to keep the vehicle plugged in at all times when a 12V fault happens. Reason why is twofold:
a) While L2 charging, the truck keeps the 12V charging system active (so works the same as a battery tender) and,
b) it doesn't rely on HV Battery for charging if the 12V system needs topped off.

Most trucks that BRICKs due to the 12V batteries being low/damaged or whatever, they ' die' because the truck shuts itself down in order to protect the HV Battery and it's 12V charging circuit.
...
there.. Rant over Thanks for your input.

Rivians do go to sleep, even if plugged in. Gen 1 Rivians don't charge the 12V battery while it is asleep. If the 12V drops low enough, it will wake up the truck to begin recharging it. That is a charging cycle.
A trickle charger (battery tender, or similar) will keep the battery in the upper portion of the range, without allowing it to drop so low that the truck must wake up to start a new charging cycle.
This discussion was about the AGM 12V batteries, not Lithium Ion batteries; charge cycles do deteriorate the AGM 12V batteries (the C&D batteries that Rivian uses are rated at 3000 to 5000 charge cycles, IIRC).
There has been discussion (with data), here in the forums, about improvement in the length of time that a Rivian can sleep (and also reduction in vampire drain) - just from using a trickle charger intermittently. Using a trickle charger definitely improves the health of the 12V battery, above and beyond just keeping the Rivian plugged into a charger.

 

[mkhuffman]

Rivians do go to sleep, even if plugged in. Gen 1 Rivians don't charge the 12V battery while it is asleep. If the 12V drops low enough, it will wake up the truck to begin recharging it. That is a charging cycle.
A trickle charger (battery tender, or similar) will keep the battery in the upper portion of the range, without allowing it to drop so low that the truck must wake up to start a new charging cycle.
This discussion was about the AGM 12V batteries, not Lithium Ion batteries; charge cycles do deteriorate the AGM 12V batteries (the C&D batteries that Rivian uses are rated at 3000 to 5000 charge cycles, IIRC).
There has been discussion (with data), here in the forums, about improvement in the length of time that a Rivian can sleep (and also reduction in vampire drain) - just from using a trickle charger intermittently. Using a trickle charger definitely improves the health of the 12V battery, above and beyond just keeping the Rivian plugged into a charger.

I think this is all true.

IMO there are two reasons to use a trickle charger to maintain the LVB:
1. You are not happy with the vampire drain and want to reduce drain of the HVB.
2. You don't drive the truck very often, so it sits for long periods of time, resulting in LVB drain and repeated charging cycles (from HVB or L2). This is similar to what happens to an ICEV when it is not driven very often. It sits, and consequently it does not go through the charging process that happens when driving. While the R1 will charge the LVB when parked and "off", it gets charged the entire time it is driven (until it is fully charged, of course). So lack of driving means less full LVB charging. Same as ICEVs.

Anyone who uses their Rivian for a daily commuter is likely getting enough charging time on the LVB to keep it healthy. Of course, short 1 mile drives are not good enough, even for ICEVs. If the truck sits for days, is driven for five minutes, and then sits for days, it is probably a good idea to trickle charge the LVB.

If you are in the middle, like I am, not doing daily commutes but driving it frequently, I wouldn't worry about the LVB. The truck is designed so that most people don't need to do exceptional maintenance to the LVB. Those who rarely drive, however, should think about hooking up a trickle charger.

 

[zymolysis]

Also, every single specialized soul around there who are experts on Lithium Ion Batteries agree that whatever kills your batteries are not just charging and discharging or ' adding cycles' like you stated. Reasons to kill a Li ION battery are (and it depends of its chemistry):

I just want to reiterate that I said nothing...whatever...about the HV battery. "Adding cycles" was about the AGM 12V battery. If the 12V battery is on its last legs, keeping the Rivian plugged into an L2 charger may keep the 12V battery alive - certainly gives it a better chance of surviving until a replacement is installed. My point, however, is that (in addition to keeping the truck on a charger whenever possible) is that a battery tender or similar (especially one with a desulphation cycle) will do a better job of saving the 12V battery.
Period.

 

[zymolysis]

IMO there are two reasons to use a trickle charger to maintain the LVB:

I would say that there is a third reason. An owner may want to get more than two or three years out of those expensive 12V batteries. Using a trickle charger (especially one with a desulphation process) will give you a better chance of extending the life significantly.
If this were a just a hundred dollar battery that an owner could pick up at at any Costco or auto parts store... and if this didn't involve the risk of one's Rivian failing to respond (and requiring extraordinary measures to open up - perhaps even being towed to a SC), I would say that reason #3 wouldn't be worth the effort.
But it is an expensive battery(ies) - the SC just quoted me $900 to replace batteries on a less than 2.5 year old truck, which does get driven quite a bit, and is on a L2 charger quite a bit in between. And the risk of the 12V batteries dying suddenly, leaving an owner and/or his family stranded, is very real.
But each owner has to evaluate the risk/reward/effort/expense trade off.

Sponsored