R2 Range Limitations and Rivian's Response

[Bullwinkle]

There are numerous tests now that show the R2 has somewhere between less and a lot less range than Rivian's marketing department and EPA testing suggested. I wonder if something changed between the EPA test mules and production? I wonder if this has actually caught Rivian management by surprise--were they anticipating more range off the production line? I further wonder what Rivian's response will be if the tested 250-mile range provides real sales headwinds and RIVN is also affected.

In the short term, is there a software update or a manufacturing tweak that can bring the range closer to 300 miles? Longer term, is there space for extra cells, or could more energy-dense cells be used? If so, could this be done before the Lidar/CPU update? If battery/range improvements add cost, could the Lidar/CPU update provide cover for a small price increase? If better cells were used in the near future, perhaps the old cells could be used up in the $45k R2?

Sorry. Quite a few questions. Not many answers.

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[VandalSibs]

Nothing is wrong with how Rivian is marketing the R2's range stats - they are using the same (or similar) EPA tests that other manufacturers use. The EPA tests don't necessarily reflect how many people drive.

There is a disclaimer on Rivian's site for R2 that states the following:

Range estimates are preliminary estimates based on the EPA test cycle and are not official EPA values. The EPA estimates range through a series of standardized lab tests that mimic real world conditions. Factors including tires, drive modes, HVAC settings and accessories can all have an impact on range.

You'll find similar disclaimers on other manufacturers' sites when stating EPA and EPA-estimated ranges for their EVs.

 

[Bullwinkle]

Nothing is wrong with how Rivian is marketing the R2's range stats - they are using the same (or similar) EPA tests that other manufacturers use. The EPA tests don't necessarily reflect how many people drive.

There is a disclaimer on Rivian's site for R2 that states the following:



You'll find similar disclaimers on other manufacturers' sites when stating EPA and EPA-estimated ranges for their EVs.

I do not intend to insinuate wrongdoing or even typical business fibbing. But clearly, the 300lb gorilla is Model Y, and most believe that Rivian wants R2 to win some of these sales. It now appears that Model Y offers significantly more range in spite of nearly identical EPA range ratings. Did Rivian anticipate that the range delta would be this large?

I think there is a significant chance that a real-world 250ish-mile range may create sales headwinds. Maybe it won't matter much, maybe it will. What will Rivian's response be? This will certainly come up at the next investor meeting. Will Rivian give a rhetorical response or an updated product strategy? I am hoping for the latter. I was hoping to generate some speculation on Rivian's range of options.

 

[sparked]

I wonder if this has actually caught Rivian management by surprise--were they anticipating more range off the production line? I further wonder what Rivian's response will be if the tested 250-mile range provides real sales headwinds and RIVN is also affected.

I'm sure they've known about this for 2 years. They're banking that the form factor and off road cred is compelling enough to offset that. If they launch a good Point to Point autonomy software release, it might balance everything out. Autonomy is where a lot of the money is going.

 

[Apprunner]

OK, but clearly the 300 lb gorilla is Model Y, and most believe that Rivian wants some of these sales. It appears that Model Y offers significantly more range in spite of nearly identical EPA range ratings. Did Rivian anticipate that the range delta would be this large?

I think there is a significant chance that this may create sales headwinds. Maybe it won't matter much, maybe it will. What will Rivian's response be? This will certainly come up at the next investor meeting. Will it be a rhetorical response or an updated product strategy?

Tesla now uses more conservative EPA ratings for their cars because of range complaints. Now, it actually is pretty easy to achieve EPA ratings.

 

[savethemanual]

Tesla now uses more conservative EPA ratings for their cars because of range complaints. Now, it actually is pretty easy to achieve EPA ratings.

Yes, that's my understanding of the EPA certification process...there are a couple of different pathways OEM's can use. Obviously Tesla and Rivian each chose a different one. Yet, the general public has no idea. This needs to change.

 

[18650]

For me and my family, 200 highway miles is about the limit of bladder comfort.

 

[TexasBob]

I know this is getting flogged to death but for the OP and others, here are some realistic numbers running an average speed of 70 mph (oscillating between 65 - 75 in real world traffic on a flat grade):

• If you start from home with 100% SOC in great weather you can plan for 225 miles before you stop. In cold or rain or headwind or fast driving it is 180 before you must stop.
• After you fast charge to 80% (which will take 30 minutes) you can go 175 in great and 140 miles in inclement weather.

That is the real expectation. It assumes you arrive with 10% SOC so it is not super conservative and the anxious driver who never wants to see single digits on the display (my wife) will be uncomfortable trying to go 175 miles after a fast charge.

Do not listen to the people who tell you that you should be fine with that. You either find that acceptable or you do not. But do not buy the vehicle in the hope that your range will be different. It won't be. You may beat this on that one magic day downhill with a tailwind etc. but the above numbers are the realistic expectation unless the OOS and SOC turn out to be out of whack. (Could happen.)

My 352 mile R1T with 100% starting charge in perfect weather and very conservative driving (600' total elevation gain) went 254 miles yesterday in perfect weather and arrived at the station with 11% - 12% SOC.

 

[kurtlikevonnegut]

250 miles is the pure highway range that has been identified in limited testing.

It is NOT the same as EPA rated range and does not reflect the actual range of the vehicle in normal driving. Unless you drive almost exclusively on the interstate at 70 or more mph, you will likely get 300+ miles of range, possibly even more than the advertised 330 miles.

 

[RivianTrackr]

The thing is Rivian hasn’t done anything wrong. We can sit here all day and agree the numbers don’t match but neither Rivian nor the EPA broke any rules. The EPA tests allow way too much flexibility in what can be reported. The whole system is broken and Rivian isn’t the first to abuse it.

 

[Dark-Fx]

Could be worse.

 

[DuoRivian]

The thing is Rivian hasn’t done anything wrong. We can sit here all day and agree the numbers don’t match but neither Rivian nor the EPA broke any rules. The EPA tests allow way too much flexibility in what can be reported. The whole system is broken and Rivian isn’t the first to abuse it.

Glad you admit they abused the discretion they had. As others have said that discretion should now be eliminated and have just one set of tests without cherry picking.

 

[renderpaz]

... still waiting for someone to share how their regular EV road trip was affected by the results of these range tests.

 

[tkauftheil]

Since I first stepped into an EV (R1S, now an R2) range has never been a concern. Sure, on long road trips I may need to take 2 or 3 extra stops. Happier bladder. And surgeon loooong trips it might and a few extra hours over all. But who cares.

I like taking in the sights on trips. And ever since getting into the EV world, I’m never in a hurry any more. Hell, I don’t even mind the infrequent rush hours traffic. Gives me more time to crank the tunes up

And let’s face it, if time was that important, take a plane.

Rivian’s have got me to enjoy driving again.

 

[DuoRivians]

So, who’s gonna be the first to take the R2 off-roading and/or overlanding in Death Valley? When battery size is important, not just for highway range but for adventuring.

If I remember, the R1 battery size is barely big enough for this excursion.

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