Charging Station Rating in new Rivian software update -- Wassym interview

[Autolycus]

So what does this do, go through the plug share data and use that? At any rate, this is just another indicator how bad public DCFC is.

Watch Wassym's interviews with OOS Podcast and State of Charge. They're using actual charge session data from Rivian vehicles.

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[Dave Cundiff]

The appropriate numerator is the number of successful charging sessions, at a reasonable speed and cost.

The appropriate denominator is the number of times someone goes to a charger location intending to charge there.

In an automated feedback system such as ABRP's, it's easier to measure the numerator than the denominator. Both can be measured accurately, though, with the right user interface.

In a user-generated feedback system such as PlugShare's, statistics will be more accurate if everyone leaves a Check-In for every intended charge, whether there was an obstacle to plugging in or not.

I hope this helps!

 

[Tahoe Man]

I don't think the number of offline stalls should have any weight. The number of broken stalls doesn't matter. What matters is the number of available stalls. Which would you prefer?

A 6 stall location where every stall is working and 4 are usually occupied, (2 available)
A 12 stall location where 2 stalls are broken and 4 are usually occupied (6 available)
A 30 stall location where 14 stalls are broken and 4 are usually occupied (12 available)

Even though nearly half of the stalls at the largest location are broken, I would select that location every time as long as the brokken stalls are clearly reported as broken so I don't have to waste time figuring out which stalls work via trial and error.

Another complication of using outages (or occupancy) is that this isn't something Rivian can detect on their own. If a stall is so clearly broken that no one bothers to try to use it, then Rivian will never know that it is broken unless the vendor tells Rivian about it.

Rivian only has this data because some providers share it with them. If Rivian subtracts points when a provider tells Rivian about the out of order stall, but doesn't ever subtract points from providers that don't report it(since they will never know about it), then Rivian would discourage providers from reporting the outages which is the opposite of what Rivian or drivers would want.

More likely is one or two chargers not working out of 4,5 or 6. Less likely is 15,16,17 chargers not working out of 30,31,32. The larger facilities will get priority on maintenance.

 

[Tahoe Man]

It's sad when it comes down to having a grading system for chargers. DCFC should be as seamless and frictionless as possible to help propel EV acceptance.

 

[Riviaenz]

Pretty cool Rivian is one upping the charge experience. Although based on our recent Tesla SC experience I won’t be surprised if He threatens Rivian to stop rating Tesla. It took a couple of attempts and moving to a different pedestal to get it to work - overheard Tesla driver grumbling about it still being down, too. They still have the advantage of numbers. It was the equivalent of 1 out of 4 EA units being down at a Walmart.

 

[sd250]

This is great info to have, really happy Rivian added this.

However, based on a sample of one EA station that I make it point to avoid based on poor experiences - the EA ratings may currently have some flaws.

I see this station rated as "A". But this station has been hot garbage for over a year and I still see many recent issues noted in PlugShare. 2 or 3 out of 4 chargers often down, and even when up they're derating significantly.

 

[DeafPug]

I see this station rated as "A". But this station has been hot garbage for over a year and I still see many recent issues noted in PlugShare. 2 or 3 out of 4 chargers often down, and even when up they're derating significantly.

Does it give charging session details on that station? Things like peak charging speed… earlier, people pondered what happened for new charging sites. Maybe Rivian gives sites just added to the database an “A” score until that’s proven to be undeserved. Just guessing as to why you see that on a known bad site…

 

[sd250]

Does it give charging session details on that station? Things like peak charging speed… earlier, people pondered what happened for new charging sites. Maybe Rivian gives sites just added to the database an “A” score until that’s proven to be undeserved. Just guessing as to why you see that on a known bad site…

That's a good point. So I just checked again...
Shows 183kw average top speed. But also shows "status unknown" for the 4 chargers.

In PlugShare the last comment was a couple of days ago saying 3 of the 4 chargers are down!

It's going to take Rivian a little while to get better data. So for now, I'll also be double checking stations with PlugShare.

 

[CharonPDX]

It's based on accumulated ratings - if stalls just went down it won't impact the ratings. Any idea how long they've been down? If stalls go down but are quickly brought back online, that may not impact ratings.

What's unclear is what happens when some stalls are down but Rivian owners charge effectively at other stalls.

That's my point. It knows live if a stall is down or not - that should instantly drop the rating. It can go back up as soon as it's back online; but a station with one third of its stalls completely out of service should not get an A while they're down.

 

[CharonPDX]

I don't think the number of offline stalls should have any weight. The number of broken stalls doesn't matter. What matters is the number of available stalls. Which would you prefer?

A 6 stall location where every stall is working and 4 are usually occupied, (2 available)
A 12 stall location where 2 stalls are broken and 4 are usually occupied (6 available)
A 30 stall location where 14 stalls are broken and 4 are usually occupied (12 available)

Even though nearly half of the stalls at the largest location are broken, I would select that location every time as long as the brokken stalls are clearly reported as broken so I don't have to waste time figuring out which stalls work via trial and error.

Another complication of using outages (or occupancy) is that this isn't something Rivian can detect on their own. If a stall is so clearly broken that no one bothers to try to use it, then Rivian will never know that it is broken unless the vendor tells Rivian about it.

Rivian only has this data because some providers share it with them. If Rivian subtracts points when a provider tells Rivian about the out of order stall, but doesn't ever subtract points from providers that don't report it(since they will never know about it), then Rivian would discourage providers from reporting the outages which is the opposite of what Rivian or drivers would want.

What if that 30 stall location has 29 stalls out of service? The quick view doesn't show how many stalls are out of order, only "available." You might look at that 30-stall station and see "1 available" and think it's just busy, when it's really not at all busy. When I planned my trip, I saw "1 of 6 chargers available" - I had to drill in to see that 2 were out of order.

You also can't tell from the quick view charging speed that is actually available. Some EVgo stations have two 350kW dispensers plus two 150kW or even 50kW. If it's historically reliable, the summary would say A with a high charging speed, but what happens if those two 350kW are the ones that are down? You have an "A station, 2 of 4 available" but the two that are available are only 50kW.

ANY failed stalls should drop to a B at minimum. From there, percentage-based to drop further. 50%+ out of service? C maximum. 66%+ out of service? D maximum. Doesn't matter how many stalls. (If you absolutely insist on "30 stall treated differently" maybe it can still get an A with a failed stall if at least 8 stalls still working. (Which will allow sufficiently large stations to still show a high score even if only one or two stalls are out of service.)

And of course "in use" is irrelevant to a score, because that can change from minute to minute. Maybe some "historical busy times" could impact it recommending, but at least right now, there's no easy way to tell the difference between "all stalls currently full with vehicles that will leave in the next 5 minutes" and "all stalls full with vehicles that just plugged in, and there are 10 vehicles waiting."

I would also argue that locations that have installed "high stall count" are likely to be busier, so assuming "4 in use" at each is unlikely. That 30 stall location is probably that big for a reason, and would likely have a line to wait for those 16 working stalls, where that 6 stall location is likely to be in a less busy location.

 

[CharonPDX]

That's a good point. So I just checked again...
Shows 183kw average top speed. But also shows "status unknown" for the 4 chargers.

In PlugShare the last comment was a couple of days ago saying 3 of the 4 chargers are down!

It's going to take Rivian a little while to get better data. So for now, I'll also be double checking stations with PlugShare.

Rivian doesn't/can't show the status of Electrify America stations for some reason. You'll never get live-use on an EA. (I hope they do change that soon.)

 

[Mojave]

What does seem meaningful is the "average top speed" as an indicator of success. For example, these chargers I know to be bad are all 150/350, but their "average top speed" is in the 50-75 range. I feel like Rivian could more aggressively lower the grade on those with a low average top speed. Hopefully they update the grading methodology overtime.

I also am not excited about current grading methodology.

They say they prefer a slow 60kW charger over an unreliable 200kW. But that unreliable score is based on history. It only matters if it works today, this hour, and if it does, it's often a much better option to spend 20 minutes at the 200kW than 1h at the 60kW. If someone charged on it 4h ago according to Plugshare, I'll go to the 200kW.

I basically only use Tesla and RAN, both of which have high performance and high speed.

I only use anything else if those two are not enough to get where I want.

 

[iforbes]

That's my point. It knows live if a stall is down or not - that should instantly drop the rating. It can go back up as soon as it's back online; but a station with one third of its stalls completely out of service should not get an A while they're down.

I disagree. In my gas car, I don’t leave the station if one of the pumps says “out of order” but the other 3 are empty. I certainly wouldn’t go on google and give them 3 stars because one of their pumps is down.
I don’t understand your logic.

 

[strykerwsu]

Well at least now that I got the update I know, lol. Went and bought 2nd R1 yesterday. Father in law along on other vehicle. Thought I would be stuck in Lawton. Seems the units that Francis units in OK don't "talk" well with Rivians. I just used in KS amd MO week before but seemed to be different units. Seems the D should be an F at both locations for R1s

Finally got one 50kwh unit to work at the Hilton. After going through a total of 11 and having to wait on it to try. I really thought Other oems came and charged fine. Never had an issue before so of course father in law was with me in chase car lol. Added 2.5 hours to what was supposed to be a 7 hour trip.

Also the recent layoffs did seem to impact call service. I have called Rivian in past amd got someone to answer within 30 seconds everytime. Both times yesterday 20 min and no one answered.

With 3 EVs I'm an adopter and willing to deal with "crap" but damn there are definitely regions you have to really consider ICE instead if only options are all the same type of units.

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