DCFC restrictions, warning

[Aardvark]

I intentionally choose 150 kW chargers over the 350s if I have the choice. Here's why based on a large number of EA stations used on multiple trips between Colorado and Philadelphia (of course, this is just one person's observations):
- the 150s are more reliable. I've had many 350s derate after a minute or two to 96 kW. Unplugging and reconnecting 2 or 3 times gave the same error. This even occured at the EA in Salina KS where the 350s were brand new and activated only 2 weeks prior. Outside temps were moderate, but I still think this is thermal related.
- Like Out of Spec found out in testing, I also find that there is little to no difference in charging time. Yes, a 350 kW pedestal will put ot 220 kW, but only for a very short time, and then drop to a rate lower than the 150s for the same state of charge. The area under the curve from 10-70% SOC is almost identical. The 150s rise to 160 kW but drop off at a slower rate.

The 350 kW pedestals have been a source of frustration for me. I'm squarely on Team 150.

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[emoore]

As others have mentioned this is really a non issue. You’ll get a more reliable charging session and almost the same charging speed with the 150kw stations as the 350kw ones. And most new EA stations are all 350s. They are even replacing old ones with all 350s so no place for those darn bolts to move anywhere else.

 

[sub]

EA could resolve this with pricing.

Do per minute billing with the rate based on the max speed the charger is capable of.

Charge $2.91 per minute at the 350kw stall.
Charge $1.25 per minute at the 150kw stall.

If you can max out the 350 kw stall then the cost per kwh is the same on either stall.

But if a leaf pulls into the 350kw stall they will end up paying more than twice as much as if they had used the 150.

This would also discourage people from changing to 100% The longer you stay the higher the per kwh price.

 

[MountainBikeDude]

My idea still stands.

When the initial handshake is done, a max “speed” warning would not be a bad idea. I believe most people are not aware of their vehicle’s charging speed limitation.

I think Porsche is one of the only EV's that tells you at any moment, your maximum charging rate. This is the way, provided the driver can understand all the EV charging, thermal nuances to put it into practice and choose the appropriate charger.

I remember in '23 there was a tesla model 3 at a ccs Petro Canada 200kW DCFC. Forget the fact there are dozens of superchargers and the guy clogged up one of six CCS stations with a tesla... Anyway, the guy was top balancing his battery to 100% and literally sat there for 45 minutes while other EV's piled up waiting to change.

I went up to the guy early on, trying to help him understand that his car was pulling 5kW on a DCFC that's charging him 50 cents/min when he could literally unplug, from the ccs so others could charge, but that the level 2 charging post right beside it was free (not in use and didn't cost anything) and would deliver the same power his vehicle needed to get from 99-100%.

Nope, wasnt having it. So despite repeated attempts by others, he just continued to trickle charge his tesla to 100% because he needed a full battery to drive literally 50km home. Ended up costing him a little over $30 to get from 98-100%

My point is, some are so ignorant, that they chose not to care, or are open to learning.

 

[MikeWilliams_R1T]

I thought you would see less people going to the 350kw over 150kw when EA changed their pricing model from number of minutes to number of kW pumped.
When charged by the minute, there was a slight value hooking up my Rivian to the 350 post if it was really low like under 20% SoC. It maybe shaved 2-3 minutes off the session being able to sit at 220kw until it got in the 40% range.
If it was still the old days (at least here in TN last summer) and EA was still billing by the minute, it was also dumb to stay plugged in anywhere over 70% when it would start slowing down fast.

I guess the point of my post is when they changed the pricing model rule here in TN last summer, I was positive behavior would change. I don’t think it has. Now there is no longer an incentive to unhook over 80% when the charge rate drops.

 

[Zoidz]

EA could resolve this with pricing.

Do per minute billing with the rate based on the max speed the charger is capable of.

Charge $2.91 per minute at the 350kw stall.
Charge $1.25 per minute at the 150kw stall.

If you can max out the 350 kw stall then the cost per kwh is the same on either stall.

But if a leaf pulls into the 350kw stall they will end up paying more than twice as much as if they had used the 150.

This would also discourage people from changing to 100% The longer you stay the higher the per kwh price.

Not a bad idea, but it could have a negative affect. Everyone wanting to use the lower cost charger, with some willing to wait causing more congestion and more potential "Who's next?" conflicts, and the higher cost charger becomes an unused asset.

Now, if the price on a 350kw were to drop if all the 150kw were in use ... Dynamic Pricing...

 

[Electrified Outdoors]

Hey it’s annoying I get it. On the bright side at least there were working chargers. I will take a slower working charger over a nonworking charger. Except when I’m towing and the charger is only putting out 15 kW! While a BMW charges next to us at the only other working charger getting 30 kW and charging to 100%. Walterboro SC

 

[elatrickWheels]

Imagine you were driving a Bolt, and pull into a station with two 150kW chargers and two 350kW chargers. The only available charger is rated at 350kW. Don’t pretend you wouldn’t pull into the 350 stall and plug in. And then, when the drivers of the cars in the two 150kW stalls leave, don’t pretend you’re going to unplug and shuffle over.

 

[Dark-Fx]

Stations just need to be set up to power-share instead of having different capabilities.

 

[UnsungZero_OldTimeAdMan]

I thought you would see less people going to the 350kw over 150kw when EA changed their pricing model from number of minutes to number of kW pumped.
When charged by the minute, there was a slight value hooking up my Rivian to the 350 post if it was really low like under 20% SoC. It maybe shaved 2-3 minutes off the session being able to sit at 220kw until it got in the 40% range.
If it was still the old days (at least here in TN last summer) and EA was still billing by the minute, it was also dumb to stay plugged in anywhere over 70% when it would start slowing down fast.

I guess the point of my post is when they changed the pricing model rule here in TN last summer, I was positive behavior would change. I don’t think it has. Now there is no longer an incentive to unhook over 80% when the charge rate drops.

Consumer behavior would change only if the cost difference is significant enough. And most people don't bother to do the math when looking at the per kWh figure. They see a few cents of difference and think nothing of it, without even bothering to do the math on cost of full session. You would see behavior change only if that per kWh increase is glaring.

Even if they are aware of the cost increase, if they think they'll charge faster and save time, and they can afford the cost increase, they'll do it. Wouldn't anyone, ignorant of actual charging speeds, do it? Not every EV owner is aware of the nuances of charging curves and speeds. And it's assuming a lot that any of them would be curious enough to learn. Willing to bet many would think that you, a stranger, is being a "Karen" when you try to teach them.

Plus, the other problem is EA: there aren't enough chargers per site. Around here it's typically 2 to 6 per site. Picture yourself to be that Bolt driver. You've already waited in line and there are more cars behind you doing the same. When you're next in line and a spot opens, would you not take it because you've already waited 30-40 minutes? and to keep the queue moving? or do you say to the next person "no, no, I prefer to wait even longer because it's the right thing to do, you go ahead". Yeah... right. No one with somewhere to be is going to do that. In a first come, first serve, honor system situation, the sooner everyone takes their turn and be on their way, the sooner everyone else gets through.

 

[Mathme]

As others have said, the charging time at EA between the 350s and the 150s is negligible. I have however, run into more problems with charging speed from the 350s...which on a hot day I think is due to the ability of the cable to stay cool. When I go into an EA station, I usually look for the empty station that's working. '

 

[MikeWilliams_R1T]

Consumer behavior would change only if the cost difference is significant enough. And most people don't bother to do the math when looking at the per kWh figure. They see a few cents of difference and think nothing of it, without even bothering to do the math on cost of full session. You would see behavior change only if that per kWh increase is glaring.

Even if they are aware of the cost increase, if they think they'll charge faster and save time, and they can afford the cost increase, they'll do it. Wouldn't anyone, ignorant of actual charging speeds, do it? Not every EV owner is aware of the nuances of charging curves and speeds. And it's assuming a lot that any of them would be curious enough to learn.

Plus, the other problem is EA: there aren't even chargers per site. Around here it's typically 2 to 6 per site. Picture yourself to be that Bolt driver. You've already waited in line and there are more cars behind you doing the same. When you're next in line and a spot opens, would you not take it because you've already waited 30-40 minutes? and to keep the queue moving? or do you say to the next person "no, no, I prefer to wait even longer because it's the right thing to do, you go ahead". Yeah... right. No one with somewhere to be is going to do that. In a first come, first serve, honor system situation, the sooner everyone takes their turn and be on their way, the sooner everyone else gets through.

I agree... and I have been that Bolt driver.

I actually mentioned earlier in this thread, I showed my teenager how to use the NACS adapter and charge at a Tesla supercharger with her Bolt.

That being said, she knows that its really only an option if she is in a pinch and needs to charge and can't get to a level 2. Like on a roadtrip one day.

She is going away to college with that car pretty soon.

Education is important.

This entire thread really goes back to most dealers (especially those outside of pure EV OEM's like Tesla or Rivian) do not teach their customers about EV's and how/where to charge them. I remember one time, sitting at an EA charger showing the guy next to me in a brand new Lightning how to plug in and charge. We even talked about charging curves and how there are much better ways to keep it charged up... even using the mobile charger in your driveway.

 

[JoelD]

It shocks me how “entitled” folks are getting about this. Budget the time for charging, not bitching. It’s a common ecosystem, share and be a nice human. I have an R1T and a Bolt. I’ve charged the Bolt at EA stations on a 350 when that was what was open. We’re on our second Bolt, this one is a 2020, the first was a 2017. I’ve had my R1T almost 3 years. When I’ve been on an EA 350 with the Bolt, I politely tell other drivers that this is the one that was open when I came in. I carry a NACS adapter in the Bolt and have used it, getting the max 45-50kW. And EA reliability is terrible. We usually road trip in the R1T, but sometimes use the Bolt.

The big issue is charger reliability, and Tesla stations just plain work. Pull up to one and it works at rated speed (considering temperature, vehicle, and charging curve) 99% of the time. My bias is to always use a Tesla Supercharger if convenient and most are. I pay the $13/mo subscription fee (100 kWh a month and I’m better off), and even with that added in Tesla is usually cheaper than EA or EVGO for example. My favorite station is in Halifax NC on I95, where there are 60 kiosks under solar panels. Stopped there with the R1T yesterday on the way back to NC from visiting grandkids in NOVA.

Don’t bitch. Help newbies. Be nice, it pays dividends…

-Joel

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