My Rivian Driver+ almost killed me

[VSG]

Not sure why those that are in tech all of sudden are experts at driver assistance gadgetry. I planted a tomato plant, hey that makes me a farmer!

Not sure why someone like you who doesn't own a Rivian thinks they have something to add to the discussion.

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[s4wrxttcs]

Not sure why those that are in tech all of sudden are experts at driver assistance gadgetry. I planted a tomato plant, hey that makes me a farmer! Not sure why op has to state he's a Rivian fan either, if my car almost killed me due to some programming bug, oops I meant feature, I could see myself taking a baseball bat to it.

A sudden swerve at 70mph will definitely feel like a sharp, violent turn. Op, glad you or anyone else didn't get hurt. Frankly these assistant systems are just a joke, a whiz bang feature to promote sales, but in reality gets used so driver's can text and whatnot. But it's tech gadget, so it's gotta be good, right.

What's a joke is the ability of human beings to drive.

You'd think that most humans would be capable of staying in the lanes, keeping proper distance from the car in front, and not flipping out when some idiot cuts in. But, humans aren't so good at any of those. Not when you look at the fatalities on the road.

So humans could use a little help.

That help can come in the form of passive assistance like automatic emergency braking or lane departure warnings. But, I feel like the most effective form of safety comes in the form of convenience features.

For example I love adaptive cruise control because it makes my life easier, and I feel like it increases safety. I'm more likely to go "Meh" when someone cuts in, and it helps to prevent unintentional speeding. Occasionally I do experience phantom braking with adaptive cruise control, but nothing all that alarming. So I don't really have any reason not to use it.

Lane Steering is really where people get into trouble.

I place the blame on the industry and on the NHTSA for placing all the responsibility on the driver for failures of the L2 system (the combination of adaptive cruise control and lane steering).

This has directly resulted in the release of a lot of beta level driver assist systems. You imply that all driver assist systems suck, but that's not really the case. GM's Supercruise in particular is a really good system that relies on continuously updated 3D maps to avoid things like phantom swerving. They also have driver monitoring to prevent people from texting while using the system.

I do expect the industry to slowly move to L3 where the automaker does take full responsibility while its engaged in L3 Mode. So far its only MB with their traffic assist system in a couple states.

 

[superfly_snook]

I have seen cars spin at 80mph so I believe it could have all happened just as written without the R1 rolling or anything.

I normally look out my front windscreen while driving but on the occasions I look at the screen behind the wheel it is comical to see how far off from reality the computer often is, based on its renderings. Driver + and ACC I would only consider safe on open road in very low-traffic scenarios, with hands on the wheel and ready to hit the brake. What the actual purpose of Driver+ is other than to sell cars to people that want to feel good about being in dereliction of their duty as drivers I don’t know, since once you have your hands on the wheel and are attentive you may as well steer the darn thing.

 

[RivRyan]

When I got my license back in 1980, the thing the instructor said over and over again....

I now realize you meant this as “When I got my license, back in 1980…”

But initially I read it as “When I got my license back, in 1980…”

And wondered what you lost your license for.

 

[GHuff]

I've experienced several incidents where Driver+ would have caused highway crashes if I didn't intervene.
Because of that, Driver+ is essentially worthless to me.

I don't enjoy being a guinea pig.

 

[defcon888]

I now realize you meant this as “When I got my license, back in 1980…”

But initially I read it as “When I got my license back, in 1980…”

And wondered what you lost your license for.

Yes, punctuation matters.....LOLOL

There is a big difference to "Let's eat grandma" versus "Let's eat, grandma"

 

[Dark-Fx]

In my experience it disengages lane steering really easily without any significant force.

It takes more effort to counteract it when it's steering in reaction to something.

I don't know what sort of torque sensing Rivian is doing, but it could just be measuring the energy it requires to keep the vehicle in the expected position. As soon as it starts turning the wheel away from straight, it's not going to have a great idea about what that change in energy will look like, because it's super dependent on the road conditions.

Not sure why someone like you who doesn't own a Rivian thinks they have something to add to the discussion.

Cut him a break, he's looked at a Rivian once, that makes him an owner.

 

[ovation919]

All car manufacturers should have safety as first priority. The most used means of communicating is messages. And to not have that be totally hands free, with no need to take your eyes off the road to me is an even greater insanity. Apple CarPlay is a necessity. Rivian claims it would affect their fast development and deployment is nonsense. What price safety? Is the data Rivian collects worth deciding to compromise safety. Insanity.

 

[RDMD]

Several months ago I had an incident with Driver's Plus that came very close to taking my life. I have been working with Rivian since that time to try to get to the bottom of the issue and figure out why it happened. I would have posted about this earlier but I wanted to some answers before sharing my experience with the community. I have been a staunch advocate of the Rivian brand so this isn't a 'hate on Rivian' post but rather a fact based (at least as I recall the events) warning to those who own Rivian's and use the Drivers+ feature.

Here's the facts...

• Driving at highway speeds in southern Wyoming
• Road was straight as an arrow (no obstructions etc.) and dry pavement (not slippery etc.), weather conditions fair (no rain etc.)
• Using Drivers+
• Occasionally would take both hands off the wheel (will never do this again) until the car 'chirped' and then would put hands on wheel again

On one of these occasions Drivers+ lurched the steering wheel to the left violently (at highway speed) as if it had detected some sort of obstruction on the road (there was none, bare flat as far as the eye could see). I grabbed the steering wheel with both hands and fought as hard as I could against Driver's+ to prevent it taking me off the road at highway speed (it was trying to take me off the left side of the highway). This was not a 'passive hands off loss of control' type incident, this was absolutely fighting the fully engaged automatic steering for control. I managed through brute force to overcome Drivers+ and proceed to fishtail on dry pavement for quite some time as I fought to correct the initial engagement (which was now disengaged after I overpowered it). I can honestly say this is the closest I have ever come to dying in a vehicle.

I reported the incident to Rivian immediately and asked them to pull the telemetry on the vehicle to try to figure out what happened. I won't go into the 10 hours of calls, failed follow ups, outright lies etc. with the call center as that in itself is another sad (and quite frankly surprising) story. I will tell you however that the determination of the engineering team (after 4 months) was that it was caused by the driver (apparently according to them I initiated a sharp left turn at highway speed into the ditch as I had a death wish) All I can tell you is that factually that isn't what happened and while I understand their desire to absolve themselves of liability due to the seriousness of the incident that doesn't protect other drivers who may face the same issue. Though I remain a Rivian fan I can't in good conscience not share this experience with the community knowing what happened and that it could happen to someone else, I certainly hope it doesn't.

Should I have taken both hands off the steering wheel at any point? Absolutely not, stupid, risky and will never do so again. Does that in itself change that this system catastrophically failed and almost killed me and may kill others? Nope, not a bit.

That’s a terrifying experience. Glad to hear you were ok. I find Tesla Autopilot (non Fsd) is far better at keeping me centered and can hold up to rain. My driver + gave up without warning while driving in SoCal on a highway we’ve travelled before in rain. Sadly the Rivian techs aren’t able to make any suggestions either despite providing a timestamp. I love my Rivian but Driver + and the entire camera system including blind spot have a long way to go

 

[Atlrivian]

I've noticed over the last few months the collision avoidance system in my T has gotten wonkier. There's a specific overpass I go under every day, and maybe 1/10 times I get huge collision warnings. The first time it happened I had auto-braking enabled. I have corrected that now.

If your problem happened approaching / going under an overpass, could it be a similar issue of the cameras / computer thinking a collision was imminent?

In general I find the safety features to be pretty hyperactive, so I have almost everything turned off.

Ps - I skipped a bunch of posts so sorry if there's overlap with what someone else said.

 

[Tahoe Man]

What's a joke is the ability of human beings to drive.

You'd think that most humans would be capable of staying in the lanes, keeping proper distance from the car in front, and not flipping out when some idiot cuts in. But, humans aren't so good at any of those. Not when you look at the fatalities on the road.

So humans could use a little help.

That help can come in the form of passive assistance like automatic emergency braking or lane departure warnings. But, I feel like the most effective form of safety comes in the form of convenience features.

For example I love adaptive cruise control because it makes my life easier, and I feel like it increases safety. I'm more likely to go "Meh" when someone cuts in, and it helps to prevent unintentional speeding. Occasionally I do experience phantom braking with adaptive cruise control, but nothing all that alarming. So I don't really have any reason not to use it.

Lane Steering is really where people get into trouble.

I place the blame on the industry and on the NHTSA for placing all the responsibility on the driver for failures of the L2 system (the combination of adaptive cruise control and lane steering).

This has directly resulted in the release of a lot of beta level driver assist systems. You imply that all driver assist systems suck, but that's not really the case. GM's Supercruise in particular is a really good system that relies on continuously updated 3D maps to avoid things like phantom swerving. They also have driver monitoring to prevent people from texting while using the system.

I do expect the industry to slowly move to L3 where the automaker does take full responsibility while its engaged in L3 Mode. So far its only MB with their traffic assist system in a couple states.

But these systems are just driving on a freeway and requiring the driver to be a second pair of eyes and hands to take over when necessary. It's amazing how the brain of a four year old can detect, recognize and avoid objects when running around, yet it's very difficult with today's advanced perceptrons.

Yes, people suck and I mean really suck at driving, and the more toys they bring into the car adds to the risk. Human risk homeostasis states there's always a baseline risk and any decreases in risk likelihood or consequences, drivers will offset that in some other form to return to baseline.

 

[KootenayEV]

The part I'm confused about is multiple posters have reported having to fight the lane steering feature to regain control.

In my experience it disengages lane steering really easily without any significant force.

Now I do have lane departure prevention (or whatever its called) turned off. Maybe that's playing a role?

If I was the OP I would definitely report the incident to the NHTSA. Where they include all the settings they recall using.

The NHTSA is collecting data on all L2, and above driver assist systems in an effort at improving the safety of these systems. They've realized that maybe its not such a good idea for customers to be beta testing these systems.

To ensure we are all using the same nomenclature: https://rivian.com/support/article/what-features-are-included-in-rivian-driver - now on to my contribution.

I think you are on to something with the "Lane Keep Assist" (LKA) function. I don't often get to try out "Highway Assist" because I live a long way from any freeways (i.e. several hours!); however, when I have had the chance to use it, I've tried it out quite a bit out of curiosity (so I probably have several hundred km now with it, everything from no traffic, bad rain, sun, overcast, lots of traffic, flowing traffic, stop & go traffic). In my experience, it takes very little wheel torque to have the system turn off.

But, I have used LKA quite a bit on my regular 2-lane highways around here (posted speed limits 80 - 100km/h [50 - 60ish mph]). As I read through these posts, I wondered about LKA. After having a few annoyances of having to 'wrestle' with the steering wheel to keep the vehicle on the line I want through a corner, I have lately been keeping it off (unless I'm a bit sleepy). This morning I turned it on again after reading your post yesterday, and it can be pretty aggressive at keeping you to the lane, or more accurately to what it thinks is the lane.

@rivianguy (the OP), do you recall if you were driving with LKA on?

 

[sherold]

All car manufacturers should have safety as first priority. The most used means of communicating is messages. And to not have that be totally hands free, with no need to take your eyes off the road to me is an even greater insanity. Apple CarPlay is a necessity. Rivian claims it would affect their fast development and deployment is nonsense. What price safety? Is the data Rivian collects worth deciding to compromise safety. Insanity.

Insanity is thinking it is a necessity to be able to message while you are driving, regardless of how it is accomplished...

 

[rivianguy]

To ensure we are all using the same nomenclature: https://rivian.com/support/article/what-features-are-included-in-rivian-driver - now on to my contribution.

I think you are on to something with the "Lane Keep Assist" (LKA) function. I don't often get to try out "Highway Assist" because I live a long way from any freeways (i.e. several hours!); however, when I have had the chance to use it, I've tried it out quite a bit out of curiosity (so I probably have several hundred km now with it, everything from no traffic, bad rain, sun, overcast, lots of traffic, flowing traffic, stop & go traffic). In my experience, it takes very little wheel torque to have the system turn off.

But, I have used LKA quite a bit on my regular 2-lane highways around here (posted speed limits 80 - 100km/h [50 - 60ish mph]). As I read through these posts, I wondered about LKA. After having a few annoyances of having to 'wrestle' with the steering wheel to keep the vehicle on the line I want through a corner, I have lately been keeping it off (unless I'm a bit sleepy). This morning I turned it on again after reading your post yesterday, and it can be pretty aggressive at keeping you to the lane, or more accurately to what it thinks is the lane.

@rivianguy (the OP), do you recall if you were driving with LKA on?

I will be the first to say that I don't have a PhD in Rivian assisted driverology so I will do my best to answer this truthfully but my answers may not accurately reflect the different 'sub-features' of the driver's assist capabilities of the vehicle in terms of nomenclature. With that said yes I believe that the 'lane keep assist' option was on at the time of the incident (as I understand it this is the one that 'nudges you back to the center') I'm not sure which of the assist systems was the culprit here but something definitely didn't work as intended. I did receive Rivian's 'formal evaluation' letter this morning (first time seeing it in writing) and they are claiming (among other things) that the system requested a '1% correction' immediately preceding the incident in question due to lane centering, and that the system went to a 27% counter correction immediately after that (driver induced) and Driver's+ immediately disengaged. (I.e. Driver's fault, no issues with system, no liability etc. etc.) What I can tell you factually is that it was definitely more than 1%, it was sudden and aggressive, and I distinctly remember having to 'fight' the steering for control before it disengaged.

For the record I will state a few things clearly. In an incident of this nature which is sudden, short duration and with very high consequences if not resolved successfully anyone who is claiming to remember the incident perfectly is being disingenuous and I'm no different. We're talking about sub-seconds and seconds of response time here and my intent is to relay the incident as I recall it for the good of the community plain and simple. Second I say without any reservation whatsoever that I 100% own and am accountable for safety while driving the vehicle and at no point should I have had both hands off the wheel (and never ever will again). That was stupid and very nearly led to serious injury or death.

There have been several valuable community posts in response to my initial one where people have flagged very similar issues (and in some cases almost exactly the same issue in exactly the same location) which suggests that this may be something that merits broader investigation to get to the root cause vs. playing the 'it's your fault so you can't sue us' (never my intent) game. At the end of the day if sharing this experience makes it safer for all of us then it was worth the effort. I truly appreciate each of you who have shared your stories and have passed on this thread to the appropriate Rivian employees that I've been working with to try to help them troubleshoot the issue(s) accordingly.

 

[Tahoe Man]

Not sure why someone like you who doesn't own a Rivian thinks they have something to add to the discussion.

Counterpoints add to discussions. Everyone writing Rivian kumbaya drivel, aka confirmation bias, is really evident in this thread.

The first post would have been somewhat comical if it wasn't an almost deadly outcome in that the op had to state he's pro Rivian time and time again for acceptance and creditability. I'm glad nothing came from his unfortunate situation.

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